# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 185
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3729 "2018-10-26T10:18:52Z")
Except it’s not. It’s utterly non intrusive. You can be scanned without even being yellow boxed. If you can be scanned without knowing it utterly can not be intrusive. So… it’s as non consensual as mining ore from underneath someones mining lasers, bumping them, 0.01 isking them on the market. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3730 "2018-10-26T10:22:37Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Except it’s not. It’s utterly non intrusive. It is intrusive. **If I find you opening either my hood to check the engine in my car, or opening my boot to check the storage of my car, you better believe that is intrusive, non-consensual and a suspect act.** Dont you agree if I did this to your car? **Would you be like “Hey dude, go ahead and check whats under the hood and in the boot of my car. Thats NOT intrusive, non-consensual or suspect at all, broski!”** ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3731 "2018-10-26T10:31:27Z")
But you didnt. I just pointed a camera at you with a zoom lens from inside a car and you didnt even see me do it because I was so far away. there was no lifting the hood and you noticing because you didnt notice. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3732 "2018-10-26T10:32:28Z")
Answer the question: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Would you be like “Hey dude, go ahead and check whats under the hood and in the boot of my car. Thats NOT intrusive, non-consensual or suspect at all, broski!” Note: This doesnt specifiy how they did it, just that they did. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3733 "2018-10-26T10:37:32Z")
No. Because the question is irrelevant and not at all what is happening. I’m not going to answer questions that are utterly wrong analogies. Because you did not find the scanner looking under your hood. or rummaging your boot. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3734 "2018-10-26T10:40:01Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > I’m not going to answer questions that are utterly wrong analogies. If I check whats under the hood and in the boot of your car, by any means, without you knowing it, would you consider that act non-intrusive, consensual and not suspect? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3735 "2018-10-26T10:46:33Z")
That is not an analogy for scanning. Now get back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3736 "2018-10-26T10:48:06Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > That is not an analogy for scanning. It is a valid analogy. Lets say I have two device with which I can scan whats under the hood and in the boot of your car. If I use either on your car, would you consider that a non-intrusive, consensual and non-suspect act on my part? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3737 "2018-10-26T10:50:35Z")
Does the device operate from so far away I dont see you use it. If so then its non intrusive. And legal in quite a few countries depending on the device. Looking in someone’s window as they drive past is even more legal. And is a much closer analogy again than anything you’ve come up with. Non consensual does not make something a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3738 "2018-10-26T11:02:56Z")
Lets run through the 3 operative terms regarding scanning another players fit or cargo. **Intrusive:** Absolutely. You are literally intrusively, in every definition of that term, looking into MY PERSONAL fit and cargo, which is none of your business. **Non-Consensual:** I do not consent to you intrusively looking at my personal fit and cargo. Thus its defacto, non-consensual. **Suspect:** It is suspect as hell that you are intrusively looking into my personal fit and cargo, without my consent. There needs to be a cost to this kind of intrusive, non-consensual, and suspect act of looking into my personal fit and cargo, to access my ships data, and that cost should be that you get flagged as a suspect and I can shoot you for doing so. My fit and my cargo on my ship are none of your goddam business. **If you want to use devices to get intel on my personal ship data, I want to be able to shoot you for doing so.** **Thats fair and square.** > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Looking in someone’s window as they drive past is even more legal. And is a much closer analogy again than anything you’ve come up with. That is not a valid analogy, as you cant see under my hood or into my boot, through my windows. All you can see, is me driving it, and that is already possible for all in EVE, as which capsuleer is flying the ship. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3739 "2018-10-26T12:03:25Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Non consensual does not make something a crime. Suspect flag for scanning another players cargo or fit, will only effect HS, and non-wardec scanning. The only group this would harm, is suicide gankers from cherrypicking targets in HS. But it doesnt harm them much either, as though the character goes suspect for scanning, that doesnt mean they will be shot at. Going suspect doesnt involve CONCORD or gate/station guns. You can stay indefinitely there continuing to scan, unless a player decides to shoot you. You can scan on a corvette, and the scan modules are cheap as dirt. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3740 "2018-10-26T12:09:46Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > it’s only your opinion Bingooooooooooo!! That’s Salvos in a nutshell Opinions and denial I also love how he started with looking inside cars to looking under the bonnet (something that you’d need to break into the car to do 😂) ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 12:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3741 "2018-10-26T12:17:43Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Going suspect doesnt involve CONCORD or gate/station guns. Are you certain about the latter? 🤔 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3742 "2018-10-26T12:27:56Z")
The only people against a suspect flag for scanning the fit or cargo of another non-wardecced player, are HS suicide gankers. They like to sit and scan the fit and cargo of HS traffic, with no risk or cost to themselves, to cherrypick targets. Post change, they can still scan fits and cargo in HS all they want, but someone might shoot them for it. Its fair and square that if you take action to peak into someones personal ship fit and cargo for intel on them, they should be able to shoot back. Thats the cost. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3743 "2018-10-26T13:54:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > In EVE, it says this in the timer window: > “Cause- Committed a “suspect”- level offense.” Exactly what do you think ‘offense’ means in that context? (hint: it means ‘crime’.) Again, you are literally arguing to make ‘he looked at me funny’ a crime punishable by death. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If you want to sneak a peak at someones fit or cargo, the price is a suspect flag. No, it’s not. You’d _like_ it to be, but it’s not. This statement is about as accurate and truthful as your declaration that social corps **must** be limited to HS and not allowed to go into low/null/j-space. How’d that assertion work out for you? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > There should be a cost to invasively peaking into someones fit or cargo in HS, without their consent. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > There is the reason. No, that is the _claim_. The claim is not the ‘reason’. The claim does not support and justify _itself_. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The only people against a suspect flag for scanning the fit or cargo of another non-wardecced player, are HS suicide gankers. Well, as I’m not a high-sec suicide ganker (and don’t even usually have the time to do Burn Jita each year), we can add this one to the list of ‘things you’re demonstrably **wrong** about’. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3744 "2018-10-26T13:57:20Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The claim does not support and justify _itself_ . /facepalm. If you intrusively, without my consent, investigate the contents of my fit and my cargo, that is suspect as hell. If you want to pry into my personal ship fit and cargo data, yes, I want to be able to shoot you for it. You get the data for your suspect act, and I get to shoot you for doing so. That is fair and square. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3745 "2018-10-26T14:16:48Z")
In _your_ opinion. Again, you have provided nothing _beyond_ your opinion to substantiate or quantify the claim of ‘fairness’ you present. You have not demonstrated the equivalence between the quantifiable cost of a destroyed ship, and the unquantified damage sustained by you never knowing you were scanned. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 2:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3746 "2018-10-26T14:50:15Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You have not demonstrated the equivalence between the quantifiable cost of a destroyed ship, and the unquantified damage sustained by you never knowing you were scanned. If you scan my ships fit/cargo to get intel on my personal ship data, yes, damn right I want to be able to shoot you for doing so. My ships fit and cargo is none of your business. If you choose to intrusively, without my consent, and very suspectly look at my ship data, the cost should be I can shoot you for doing so. What part of that are you not understanding? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3747 "2018-10-26T15:50:28Z")
I understand perfectly well that _you want_ this. That doesn’t mean you’ve demonstrated any equivalence in damage incurred. It doesn’t mean you’ve provided a single shred of evidence to support the claim that this _should_ be an offense people can be shot over. It doesn’t make repeatedly claiming that it _does_ provide that evidence any less of an utter falsehood. And it doesn’t make you being completely unable to comprehend a single sentence of this or any other reply any less hilarious. Just because you _want_ something doesn’t mean a damned thing. So you can keep on stomping your feet and whining about how amazingly unfair it is that you can’t shoot people for doing something despite _not knowing when it happens_, and I’ll keep on happily pointing out how amazingly childish and petty your particular brand of stubborn pout-tantrum is. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3748 "2018-10-26T15:53:32Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That doesn’t mean you’ve demonstrated any equivalence in damage incurred. I have, repeatedly. That you dont acknowledge it, doesnt change that. Nobody has any business scanning my personal ship fit and cargo, without a cost, and that cost is me being able to shoot you for committing a suspect act. Ive explained and shown how that is rational, many times. Ive also shown how its a trivial matter to continue scanning on a corvette alt with cheap scanners, with a suspect flag. If you want to intrusively scan my fit/cargo, without my consent, outside of wardec, and as obviously a suspect act, I want to be able to shoot you for it as a suspect. If you think the majority of EVE players wont agree with that, youve completely lost the plot. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=184) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=186)