# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 186
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3749 "2018-10-26T16:00:10Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I have, repeatedly. You haven’t. Here’s how I can demonstrate that you haven’t: If you blow up someone’s ship, that costs them ISK, immediately, even if insured. That amount of ISK is an actual, quantifiable number. This is the cost you claim being scanned is equivalent to—the cost you claim being scanned is _roughly equal to_. If someone fits their ship with a passive targeter and scans you, you never even see the target lock. You will not know you were scanned. You have not yet demonstrated that just existing, without knowing that you were scanned, has cost you even 1 ISK. Or that it has cost you _anything_. You haven’t even identified what you think it’s _cost_ you. So: ship blown up == cost. Scanned == no cost established. Cost =/= No Cost Established. They are not equivalent. It would be like comparing your mind to that of say, an actual grown, adult man. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3750 "2018-10-26T16:06:37Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > If you blow up someone’s ship, that costs them ISK, immediately, even if insured. That amount of ISK is an actual, quantifiable number. We arent talking about blowing up a ship. We are talking about scanning its fit/cargo with no cost, whereas you should go suspect for it. You may or may not be shot at as a suspect afterwards, and you can do it in a free corvette with dirt cheap scan modules. You will still be able to scan a target, though going suspect, in a FREE ship and the few thousand isk it costs for scanning modules. Hows that for cost efficiency? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3751 "2018-10-26T16:13:40Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > We arent talking about blowing up a ship. Yes, you are: > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If you choose to intrusively, without my consent, and very suspectly look at my ship data, the cost should be I can shoot you for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3752 "2018-10-26T16:15:36Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > We arent talking about blowing up a ship. > > Yes, you are: > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > If you choose to intrusively, without my consent, and very suspectly look at my ship data, the cost should be I can shoot you for doing so. If you scan my ship for intel on my personal fit or cargo, as an intrusive, non-consensual and suspect act, damn straight I should be able to shoot you for that. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3753 "2018-10-26T16:16:54Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If you scan my ship for intel on my personal fit or cargo, as an intrusive, non-consensual and suspect act, damn straight I should be able to shoot you for that. And what do you think will happen to the ship you’re shooting? Do you think it will turn into rainbows and unicorn farts? You will blow it up. That is blowing up a ship. Which means you are talking about blowing up a ship. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > We arent talking about blowing up a ship. This, then, is clearly false. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3754 "2018-10-26T16:18:29Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You will blow it up. I would blow you up for doing it, but some wont. Whether someone aggresses a suspect for scanning their fit or cargo is up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3755 "2018-10-26T16:18:52Z")
Which still means you’re talking about blowing up a ship. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3756 "2018-10-26T16:20:48Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Which still means you’re talking about blowing up a ship. Im talking about you going suspect for intrusively, non-consensually and suspectly prying into my personal ships fit or cargo. You made the choice whether to scan or not. I make the choice whether to blow you up or not, as a suspect, for what you did. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3757 "2018-10-26T16:22:05Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > We arent talking about blowing up a ship. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I would blow you up Both of these cannot be true. If you are not talking about blowing up a ship, then you would not be talking about how you would blow up a ship. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3758 "2018-10-26T16:25:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > We arent talking about blowing up a ship. > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > I would blow you up > > Both of these cannot be true. If you are not talking about blowing up a ship, then you would not be talking about how you would blow up a ship. Its not about you being blown up. Its about you committing an intrusive, non-consensual, suspect act to gain intel on a player ships personal fit or cargo. You go suspect for that, as the cost. Whether someone bothers to blow you up as a result, or not, is up to them. I would. Others wont. But that doesnt change that you willfully committed a suspect act, and have to live with, or die, as a result of that. The value issue you try to raise is completely stupid. I can scan your fit and cargo in a FREE corvette, for peanuts in cost for the scan modules. Now, and after if scanning causes a suspect flag. I wont give a single ■■■■ if you blow up my corvette. Ill be right back with another one, and right back to scanning. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3759 "2018-10-26T16:55:07Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > for peanuts in cost for the scan modules And now even you’ve demonstrated a cost, however slight, to the scanner who gets blown up. You _still_ haven’t demonstrated any cost whatsoever to the person being scanned. And yet you claim you’ve shown the two to be equivalent. 1 =/= 0. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3760 "2018-10-26T17:03:37Z")
Here’s the solution: Make scanning another ship an act worthy of a fine deducted from the scanner’s account and paid to the person being scanned; the “aggrieved” party is compensated for his emotional trauma and penetrated private space (heh) by receiving a cash payment. What if the scanner doesn’t have any/not enough ISK in his account? Well, then he suffers a suspect timer for 15 minutes. The fine levied by CONCORD should be small; after all no property was lost, no physical damage done. 10-50k a scan should then make the volume scanning of ships in the Jita pipeline a chance for transporters to earn some beer money on their journey. Just like getting a photo and a speeding ticket in the mail; your transgression was noted, no actual harm was done, but you broke the law and must pay a cost. Making a pilot become a target for killing just because he accessed your ship’s manifest or noted your guns/sensor layout would just add more headaches to the already stretched thin CONCORD workload and you don’t want a cranky CONCORD anywhere around you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3761 "2018-10-26T17:07:16Z")
Except they haven’t broken the law. There’s no reason to add this in when it achieves nothing. Salvos’s little whiny tantrums are his own problem. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3762 "2018-10-26T17:07:59Z")
shhh, I’m stirring the pot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3763 "2018-10-26T17:09:10Z")
fair enough! heh. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 9:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3764 "2018-10-27T09:05:52Z")
I dont see the harm in suspect flag for scanning. Just gives an option to aggress the scanner for prying into your fit and cargo. You can still scan as much as you want, but yeah, you might get shot at. I dont see a problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3765 "2018-10-27T11:39:35Z")
Do you guys ever stop to consider that the root of all problems in this thread, is unregulated multi boxing? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3766 "2018-10-27T11:57:16Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Do you guys ever stop to consider that the root of all problems in this thread, is unregulated multi boxing? It is not allowed for any player whom has signed TOS/EULA to utilize two or more EVE accounts inside EVE, simultaneously, unless all of them are Omega status. Many players ask about this and are surprised to hear it is so. That they have been breaking this rule all along via various means. Some of them self-report to not get penalized, but we have no idea how many others are still violating this rule, knowingly or not. CCPs capacity to regulate, detect and enforce that is very limited. My personal unsubstantiated opinion, is that CCP is not tracking IPs, does not have automated systems to collate them, or are not acting on that data, to check against multiple simultaneous accounts in EVE, which are not all Omega status in terms of IP or other identifiers. Before the launcher and client was changed, you had to run multiple clients for multiple accounts. Now, nominally, they all run through the same launcher and client, but there are multiple ways around this. The Alpha/Omega change was “thumb-tacked” onto the old EVE structure. I would not be surprised if there are rat holes throughout that implementation that complicate CCP detecting whether a player is running multiple non-Omega accounts simultaneously on one platform or several, both of which are illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3767 "2018-10-27T15:36:12Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Do you guys ever stop to consider that the root of all problems in this thread, is unregulated multi boxing? Personally I believe that the root of all problems in this thread, including Salvos, is that human beings suck. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/3768 "2018-10-27T16:25:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > human beings suck. That would include you as also human. You are a human being, yes? As I detailed above, its a serious concern whether CCP has the means to actually investigate and enforce its policy regarding a player not flying multiple accounts in EVE, simultaneously, if they are not all Omegas. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=185) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=187)