# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![BalticBeast14](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/balticbeast14/32/242877_2.png) [@BalticBeast14](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/BalticBeast14)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/362 "2018-10-03T17:31:23Z")
Very nice reading indeed. Thanks for the minutes. I got only until half so far and can’t wait to finish it. Page 26: “Innominate says that they should just delete remote reps.” Shocking 😱 Fingers crossed for all the effort. It is huge. And discussion is so much needed. Cheers, ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/363 "2018-10-03T17:34:31Z")
> [@Engelious\_Angelion](#): > > Well why not talk about the Faucet then that produce the most isk in game…plex… PLEX don’t produce any ISK. No ISK enters the system when you buy a PLEX. You can sell a PLEX for ISK, but that ISK came from someone else’s work, and that someone else was using the faucets. The guy selling the PLEX did not. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/364 "2018-10-03T17:40:45Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > We are repeating it all, all of it is nothing new. All what was said here was in thread about carrier changes when CCP wanted to nerf carriers DPS because of too much bounties flowing into the system. Wanted to? You mean when they _did_ nerf carrier DPS. This is why the ‘we’ll stick a Band-Aid™ on it’ approach doesn’t solve things. Big picture perspectives and ‘how does it all fit together and where do we _want_ it to be at?’ is needed. ---
**Author:** ![zander\_exvirus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zander_exvirus/32/189470_2.png) [@zander\_exvirus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zander_exvirus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/365 "2018-10-03T17:41:20Z")
I dont think it is safe nor sustainable to have nullsec players helping decide what happens to other aspects of the game, especially wormholes and FW. These people dont live there, and they dont understand what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/366 "2018-10-03T17:42:55Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Does fleet PVP generate Isk? Wouldn’t it be interesting if PvP _could_ generate ISK? Or at least, generate rewards on a larger scale than ‘I got one of his hardeners’? Incentivize PvP with tangible rewards, and you might see some unexpected cascade changes. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/367 "2018-10-03T17:45:32Z")
Of course they wanted, and they nerfed, but less than they wanted because of outcry (justified I think, I would rather make carriers die faster alongside other caps than nerf dps). Still they could have done something thru that time that passed. My favourite thing is to get rid of bounties and replace with tags that would have to be sold to npc orders in high sec. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/368 "2018-10-03T17:47:47Z")
> [@Norian\_Rever](#): > > Nobody gives a ■■■■ about your recipes. **You** literally asked for the recipe: > [@Norian\_Rever](#): > > How about you share it with the rest of us, or is it CSM/CCP exclusive? > [@](#): > > Its embarrassing even one second of Summit time was wasted on that. And you asked for the recipe in response to being told that Steve posted the recipe _after he got home, so not a single second of Summit time was wasted on it_. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/369 "2018-10-03T17:51:14Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I cannot currently see any change that CCP makes including linking wars with structures make any difference to the statistics. If the defenders have a structure they can kill to end the war, a lot of corps will take that option. if the attackers choose not to defend the structure because the defenders bring overwhelming force then the war will end. If attackers choose to defend their structure then there will be fights and stuff will blow up. Much like the ECM changes this will give some _agency_ to defenders who have no other choice but to log off currently. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/370 "2018-10-03T17:54:07Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > no other choice No feasible choice actually. There is also redesign option of a ranking of the corporations. Corporations ranked from level 1 to like 10 or more, and people could wardec only those in their own level margin. Like it is in some RTS games. 💩 tier would fight 💩 tier, and 🤡 tier would fight 🤡 tier. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/371 "2018-10-03T17:56:26Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > If highsec war deccers are running for you, then you’re saying we have no problem at all. Case closed. 😂😂😂 C’mon, Tora. That’s not the case at all. In both directions, it’s content-denial, not fights, that comes from wardecs. Either the people being attacked don’t want to fight, so they don’t undock, or the wardec corps posture and pose and then when they encounter actual resistance, they scatter like roaches. Then they go back to waiting for the people they just ran away from to undock one at a time. Or they get a bunch of neutral logistics to come along so the guys they’re attacking can’t really tell their numbers and can’t shoot back at the logi… You seriously want to say that’s not broken? That that’s ‘engaging content’? Man, give me that kind of ‘You won’t be able to shoot at our logi until you’re already fighting’, and I guarantee you the ‘GRR GON’ would be enough to summon the Shade of Gevlon. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/372 "2018-10-03T18:00:54Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > We take fights but null sec alliances tend to take the wrong approach to getting a fight, usually they fill the system with 60 reds and sit in local shouting “fight me broz” when were 9 players with like 20 characters. No, we take the right approach to making you run away. You’re the ones paying for the privilege of docking up, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/373 "2018-10-03T18:05:21Z")
> [@DefaultGuy\_Redshirt](#): > > Furthermore the triple is nice because it’s ‘immune to neut pressure’ well not really. Yeah, if I’m fit for tank you’ve got a problem. But if I have 2 or 3 drone navs on? Come through my GIANT NAKED EXPOSED EM/THERMAL resistance hole and make me sweat bullets. Do you not have a Wetu out so you can refit? ---
**Author:** ![Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/circumstantial_evidence/32/399551_2.png) [@Circumstantial\_Evidence](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Circumstantial_Evidence)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/374 "2018-10-03T18:08:27Z")
> Brisc Rubal asks about the **agent finder** and the complaints about this feature. The lack of locator agents, and few agents listed in the page. Rather than using the agent finder people rely on external sites. CCP Optimal says that this was initially designed with new players in mind rather than for veterans. **Jin’taan asks then why the older system was removed.** Thanks @Brisc_Rubal for bringing this up, very sad to see the response. I won’t stop complaining about it, though. I hope CSM won’t let them forget it, either. Seems to me a comprehensive system like we had, is equally good for new and old players. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/375 "2018-10-03T18:09:45Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > 2013 : 356 B > 2014 : 704 B > 2015 : 633 B > 2016 : 276 B Uhm, Tora… are you filtering out Gevlon’s ‘Here’s a buttload of money to wardec every alliance in the CFC’ period? Because while one person usually isn’t gonna skew data over years… he threw a LOT of money into that. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/376 "2018-10-03T18:11:40Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > If the defenders have a structure they can kill to end the war, a lot of corps will take that option. > > if the attackers choose not to defend the structure because the defenders bring overwhelming force then the war will end. If attackers choose to defend their structure then there will be fights and stuff will blow up. > > Much like the ECM changes this will give some _agency_ to defenders who have no other choice but to log off currently. You just have no idea… Your that clueless your quoting the wrong person with my words. The problem stands that war mechanics are affecting player retention because they do not wish to actively play whilst at war. Your solution is to create another mechanic (war structures or whatever) to try to get players to engage into a mechanic they don’t want to engage in. Now lets say they engage in the new structures and turn up with their 10 man fleet to be met with overwhelming forces, what exactly has changed other then you have given them a new unobtainable target? > [@Arrendis](#): > > You seriously want to say that’s not broken? That that’s ‘engaging content’? And dropping tons of capitals on small fleets is engaging content? sounds pretty much the same game style. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, we take the right approach to making you run away. You’re the ones paying for the privilege of docking up, after all. You travel to high sec wasting all that time for us to dock up in the system we were already in to travel back home again, must be frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/377 "2018-10-03T18:17:13Z")
> [@Norian\_Rever](#): > > Who do you think cares what you think? > > I’m a potential voter and part of the playerbase. > You SHOULD care what I think, correct? No, they should care about how to get you to vote for them. Which you’re not going to do. Your _opinion_ and what you _want_ are really _not_ relevant outside of ‘how do I get you to vote for me?’ So, since you’re not going to vote for them no matter what… you make your opinions immediately irrelevant. And if you want to argue that a representative’s votes and efforts should be subservient to the opinions of those he represents… well, I’ll just let [timeless words](http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html) stand for themselves in reply. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/378 "2018-10-03T18:18:28Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > The “Loki case” didn’t prove the approach was bad, it shows the very thing CCP is bad at, pull out results and make haste tweaks. It’s no brainer Loki need nerfs. The bottom line is that the result is what counts. No matter how good you think the approach was or the process was, the result was still something that’s broken, just broken in a different way. I simply don’t view that as a success. It’s the equivalent of saying the surgery was a success because it killed the cancer, ignoring the fact that it also killed the patient. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/379 "2018-10-03T18:18:30Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > If the defenders have a structure they can kill to end the war, a lot of corps will take that option. You know what all these corps can do ? Unite together and start bashing pocos belonging to war dec corporations… “oh? we will have to fight? And we will be actively hunted?” That is where the problem is – too many people form hs have not seen much of pvp outside of occasionally getting ganked. Too many scared to undock, too many not skilled into pvp capable bc. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/380 "2018-10-03T18:18:44Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Now lets say they engage in the new structures and turn up with their 10 man fleet to be met with overwhelming forces, what exactly has changed other then you have given them a new unobtainable target? Not everyone is going to turn up with a 10 man fleet. If the 60 man fleet turns up and makes the attackers run away and refuse to fight then what? Having a structure to kill gives them an objective and a way to end the war. If attackers want to continue the war they have to undock and fight. There are many corps that want to fight back but the current mechanic provides no means for them to do so. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > You just have no idea… Your that clueless your… _YAWN!_ …and its \ ***you’re** btw. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/381 "2018-10-03T18:20:31Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Much like the ECM changes this will give some _agency_ to defenders who have no other choice but to log off currently. How about entering j-space? Or low sec? Or moving to hs pockets for time of war [maybe staying there if you like the area?] ? Hauling you can contract to frogs anyway… [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=20)