# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/382 "2018-10-03T18:21:13Z")
> [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](#): > > You know what all these corps can do ? Unite together and start bashing pocos belonging to war dec corporations… “oh? we will have to fight? And we will be actively hunted?” That is where the problem is – too many people form hs have not seen much of pvp outside of occasionally getting ganked. Too many scared to undock, too many not skilled into pvp capable bc. This is true. Some, not all will take that option. Some will though and for those that want to fight back there is no viable, meaningful way to do it. So you bash their POCOs, then what? The war is still on. The attackers will still wait for easy targets, and will replace the POCOs like nothings happened. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/383 "2018-10-03T18:24:16Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Now lets say they engage in the new structures and turn up with their 10 man fleet to be met with overwhelming forces, what exactly has changed other then you have given them a new unobtainable target? Lets be honest here - there is already a structure in place. POCOs are that. Just have to identify poco holding corp… and dec it. And bash it. And then fight off your defense fleet. And I will be honest as well – most people who complain about wars won’t bother with doing this. As you say, it would be same with new structure. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/384 "2018-10-03T18:25:32Z")
It wouldn’t be interesting at all. PVP would be reduced to 1 man fleets with 24+ alts all looking to leech that sweet PVP reward goodness. It would be a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/385 "2018-10-03T18:28:01Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Not everyone is going to turn up with a 10 man fleet. If the 60 man fleet turns up and makes the attackers run away and refuse to fight then what? Having a structure to kill gives them an objective and a way to end the war. If attackers want to continue the war they have to undock and fight. > > There are many corps that want to fight back but the current mechanic provides no means for them to do so. The CSM minutes were talking about young corporations and new player retention, which has nothing to do with 60 man fleets. Most of the corporations on the statistics probably didn’t even have 60 members. > [@nomadd79](#): > > _YAWN!_ > > …and its \* **you’re** btw. Truth hurts, my points are valid which is why you have to attack my English instead. ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/386 "2018-10-03T18:29:43Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > So you bash their POCOs, then what? The war is still on. The attackers will still wait for easy targets, and will replace the POCOs like nothings happened. How will they replace pocos now that they have to bash your poco? You did place poco after blowing their’s, right? You see, you do this to pull them off the station game so that the fight is in a more balanced territory as they are masters of station games. [never fight in territory that gives very big advantage to enemies]. You could organize 60 man fleet already … if you tried to do so. I fear though it would be more akin to GOTG - useless coalition full of internal squabbles. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/387 "2018-10-03T18:29:51Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > The CSM minutes were talking about young corporations and new player retention, which has nothing to do with 60 man fleets. Most of the corporations on the statistics probably didn’t even have 60 members. If there are structures to bash then and an alliance war decs over 100 newbro corps then I can see them joining forces to form 60 man fleets. Right now there is no incentive for defenders to work together as it acheives nothing. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/388 "2018-10-03T18:33:59Z")
> [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](#): > > How will they replace pocos now that they have to bash your poco? You did place poco after blowing their’s, right? You see, you do this to pull them off the station game so that the fight is in a more balanced territory as they are masters of station games. My guess is wardec’ing corps are not making a most of their ISK from PI. The loot they could miss out on by leaving the station and gates to defend the POCO will probably be more valueable than the POCO itself. I highly doubt they would be too bothered to defend the POCO and they’ll just let you shoot it till you get bored. Plus POCO’s reinforce anyway so you’d have to come back the next day. I’d say war dec structures should have no reinforcement timers if it was up to me. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/389 "2018-10-03T18:34:53Z")
> [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > I wanted to say it’s true, but then I started thinking about it. In the real world it’s a bit true as part of a more complicated constellation, in which the evolving differentiation of labour and somewhat parallel evolving of needs and wants is the strongest force of forming larger and larger groups. Do you think this doesn’t happen in EVE? I’m just curious where you stand on this, as I run a sub-org within the Imperium that specialized primarily in flying Logistics ships. Similarly, there are organized groups that specialize in other roles: Linkswarm, Recon, Scouts, GSOL (true logistics work, not fleet tenders), Bomberwaffe, BlackOps, and so on. > [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Larger forms of organizations, such as entire nations, tend to have bitter inner fights about how to define themselves. That includes any definition of who the enemy is or might be, what the common goal even is and so forth. These happen most often when that group or nation appears to be largely unopposed, or its populace feels no real connection to ‘opposing’ those external to them… or when their attempts to define an external ‘other’ are contested by other members of their society. In these cases, the rise of an external threat almost always causes an abandonment of internal tensions until that threat is dealt with. > [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > As Larrikin suggests, one common reaction of people to facing a self-declared opponent who is going to stomp on them, is to leave the game. Sure, but that happens largely when people don’t feel like they have the ability to ‘get more friends’. > [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > I mean what you are describing is people not wanting to lose everything. Other games, virtual or physical or both, also usually have one side losing a round. And while always losing is not fun, people develop a high motivation to go through all these losses, before their first victory. Many people do the same in EVE, be it as an active participant in PVP or learning to avoid being the victim. So it’s not losing itself, that brings people to join blocs, but the type of continous losing that we call being farmed (and possibly mocked). I think it’s more than that, but also exactly what you say with the first sentence of this graf: people don’t want to lose everything. But by that, I don’t mean ‘lose every fight’. I mean ‘lose all their stuff’. In other games, you lose a match, you start the next match with all your stuff. You don’t lose your gear if a WoW Battleground or Arena goes badly. You don’t lose the ability to field a tank or ship in World of WarWhatevers between rounds. People in EVE can (not all of them do) learn to play for keeps, and take that very seriously, because _you can have your stuff taken away from you_. And they don’t like having stuff taken away from them[1]. > [@zluq\_zabaa](#): > > Just as a thought: if ships that have turrets, launchers or drones fitted, would have to wait out a 20-30 second timer before they can jump to a cyno beacon created by a on-board generator, it could … mean that once the cyno is up, everyone’s sitting waiting for 5 minutes because the destination system is in heavy time dilation already. And god forbit you’re the second capital fleet coming in, because the 2-10 second difference in when your guys click ‘jump’ means that fleet that’s had forever to spot your cyno is waiting for you to come trickling in. It _would_ mean battleship fleets bring a couple of Nestors along, though, so they can jump immediately… and then pull their guns out of cargo to fit them. * * * 1. That’s not a ‘they don’t like this part of the game’, mind you, that’s ‘having their stuff taken away from them gets them annoyed at the people who blew their stuff up’, which is a very different thing from them getting annoyed at the game designers who said ‘yup, your stuff is _gone_, baby.’ ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/390 "2018-10-03T18:38:14Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > I highly doubt they would be too bothered to defend the POCO and they’ll just let you shoot it till you get bored. Plus POCO’s reinforce anyway so you’d have to come back the next day. I’d say war dec structures should have no reinforcement timers if it was up to me. Well then. I dare you to try it 🙂 Give it a try, Come on. Show us you would be ready to shoot at their “war structure” by reinforcing and then blowing up one of their pocos. Surely it is not that hard, right? Especially if they don’t show up to defend you. Show us. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/391 "2018-10-03T18:38:18Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > my points are valid No. they aren’t. You are defending the status quo which is pointless as, bottom line, the system is broken and it’s going to change. The only people who don’t want any change are people who are members of, or linked to griefing… I mean war deccing organisations. You lot have had it your way for way too long. I’m **so** glad CCP and the CSM are on the verge of doing something about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/392 "2018-10-03T18:39:20Z")
No, CCP acknowledge the fact the Loki need tweaks, but for some reason they don’t do them. Method is fine and unbiased. You just can’t stand the fact that it is better than 10 people choosen in “democratic” vote by minority of playerbase. I wrote it one more time. The fact Loki is unbalanced was not focus group fault, it was CCPs because they already have data but don’t do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/393 "2018-10-03T18:42:18Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Because that worked out so well. 🙂 T3Cs are actually in a much better place now than they were previously. The real problem with trying to balance something whose main advantage is versatility is that you have to balance it against _everything_, in _every_ role it can possibly fill. Right now, the Tengu’s tanky, and not bad for PvE, but it kinda sucks for any large-scale use other than an FC ship. And the Proteus was so dominant, they beat that thing into the dirt (which, you know, was a knee-jerk reaction). The Legion could use a little bit of tweaking still, as it’s in a relatively good place, until you want it to do more than 1-2 specialized roles (I do miss anti-support Legions), but the Loki’s probably right _about_ where they should be. Maybe reduce the damage bonuses on the offensive subs a _little_ to pay for the flexibility, but they still lose to massed battlecruisers, which is where an advanced cruiser _should_ start to fall short. Again, you run into the Muninn/Hurricane issue: similar direction in multiple branchings leads to similar results with different costs and barriers to entry. Lokis are _easier_ to get into than Muninns, ironic as it is. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/394 "2018-10-03T18:43:45Z")
> [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](#): > > Well then. I dare you to try it 🙂 Give it a try Again what would be the point? Even when we killed PIRAT [here](https://zkillboard.com/kill/60941030/) and [here](https://zkillboard.com/kill/60941073/) we felt great for like a hour but the war didn’t end. We still had to put up with station games for the rest of the week. There is very little point killing POCOs. No point at all. ---
**Author:** ![Petrified](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/petrified/32/243936_2.png) [@Petrified](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Petrified)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/395 "2018-10-03T18:43:59Z")
In terms of the Ferox: if you have two fleets with equal numbers of opposing ships and full skills, one with the Ferox and the other with any HAC capable of long range: which will win? The argument that: the ship is cheaper so more people can fly it and swarm the other fleet into oblivion so it must be nerfed is a poor argument… plus it flies against actual usage of cheap and innovative tech in real life. And, ironically, flies against the history of your own CFC history of using cheap ships to swarm the enemy. The real test is: with everything being equal: is X better than Y? Maybe the issue with HACs need more love, not nerfing a flexible and accessible platform… unless it posses a threat to the current Bloc powers so then, yes, it MUST be nerfed to keep the status quo. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/396 "2018-10-03T18:45:17Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > No. they aren’t. You are defending the status quo which is pointless as, bottom line, the system is broken and it’s going to change. > > The only people who don’t want any change are people who are members of, or linked to griefing… I mean war deccing organisations. You lot have had it your way for way too long. I’m **so** glad CCP and the CSM are on the verge of doing something about it. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Considering most wars end up with zero kills either side, it would seem that its not the dying that is affecting the player retention but the war in itself, if this is the case then I cannot currently see any change that CCP makes including linking wars with structures make any difference to the statistics. Think about my statement here for a minute, here I state that **war mechanics** **are the problem** and that linking to structures would not solve the status quo on player retention, basically saying removing war mechanics is the only option. Then you started arguing with me about it. You arguing with me make you the one defending war mechanics 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/397 "2018-10-03T18:51:45Z")
Just ask CCP when loki nerfs. Ask them every day untill they deliver. I am starting to believe there is no other way than pestering them daily untill they do something. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/398 "2018-10-03T18:52:42Z")
> [@Petrified](#): > > In terms of the Ferox: if you have two fleets with equal numbers of opposing ships and full skills, one with the Ferox and the other with any HAC capable of long range: which will win? It’s actually hard to say, since we’ve never seen a case of ‘all other things being equal’, and _never will_. It’s impossible. You’ll never have equally-skilled FCs on both sides having equally-good days, etc etc, and the first mistake changes the math. But if we look at things _on paper_… The Ferox has better range, and slightly higher DPS at range. It also has the edge in ‘normal’ tank. The Muninn, OTOH, is faster, and does its damage in much more powerful volleys that are much harder for Logi to protect against. It also has the ADC, and the ADC _can_ radically swing a fight in favor of the Muninn, _if_ the pilot is competent. Honestly, equal numbers, equal skill levels in use… I’d give the Muninn the edge, by a not-insignficant margin. Edit: Is it a ‘Literally 5 times the cost’ margin? I don’t know. Obviously, 5 Feroxes beat 1 Muninn. But, as I’ve said about my own absurdly-expensive logistics ships, a ship you don’t lose is a lot cheaper to fly than 3 you do. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/399 "2018-10-03T18:54:46Z")
Let me be clear to you then. I’m not suggesting removing war deccing from the game altogether. The last thing I want is to make HS safe for care bear corps to become untouchable. But the _current_ mechanics of war decs are too far skewed towards attackers with no real means for defenders fighting back. All I see from you is “this wont work…” and “that won’t work…”. Show me where you’ve made any positive contribution to the discussion. Not a single idea for how to fix things just throwing sand in people’s eyes and saying there is no point to change as change wont solve anything, ergo, maintain the status quo. Again IMHO, a structure to fight over that will give defenders a way to end the war which, for a lot of corps, will be incentive enough to form up a decent fleet and/or band together with other war dec’d corps. It will force attackers to leave the station undock and gatecamps in order to defend them. Frankly I don’t care if its some other means that ends up achieving this end. So long as something changes in the current system which is little more than griefing + killboard padding with almost no risk whatsoever to the attackers. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/400 "2018-10-03T18:58:49Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Again IMHO, a structure to fight over that will give defenders a way to end the war which, for a lot of corps, will be incentive enough to form up a decent fleet and/or band together with other war dec’d corps. It will force attackers to leave the station undock and gatecamps in order to defend them. If this is the case, then destruction of the structure should cause the 24-hr ‘War is ending’ window. Otherwise, when you get groups to band together to fight back, as soon as they blow up one structure, their little band starts to fall apart, and they can’t keep clearing the attacker’s structures. ---
**Author:** ![Petrified](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/petrified/32/243936_2.png) [@Petrified](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Petrified)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/401 "2018-10-03T18:59:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The real problem with trying to balance something whose main advantage is versatility is that you have to balance it against _everything_ , in _every_ role it can possibly fill. Actually, the real problem is trying to balance everything to begin with. The history of warfare and technology is newer tech being ‘better’ than older tech. No one thinks a Trebuchet should be modernized to compete against a short range tactical missile (or the missle ‘nerfed’ to make the trebuchet competitive). But sometimes older can be better - the Sherman tank was used by the Israelis to defeat the newer Arab tanks being used against them - because they could lower their turrets further allowing the Sherman tank to fire over dunes without exposing as much as their opponents tank. Now, had they been on flat terrain, the story would have been different. As with all warfare: adapt, improvise, improve, and survive. There is also this: the cost of specialization will result in inflexibility. The Ferox has some specialization but not a lot compared to a HAC. In a one on one fight will the Ferox win or the HAC? Depends on how both are used. So maybe the issue is not so much the flexibility of the Ferox but poor decisions by the fleet commanders and alliances for using a specialized ship outside of it’s specialization and in insufficient numbers with pilots lacking the piloting expertise to fully utilize the ship. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=19) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=21)