# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/522 "2018-10-04T09:26:01Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > There we go with the quickly again, nothing in high sec to do woth structures ends quickly. I know as I felt like my life got drained away shooting structures the last 6 months. You guys made that happen with your one sided gameplay and the mechanics being in your favour. I like Tora’s reply above: > [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > I don’t think broken is the right word, but there are enough things that could be improved. I hope changes come soon, as I’m way to bored right now. Changes mean chaos for a while. And chaos is new Eve content. > > So bring it on. 🙂 That is what you should be doing! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/523 "2018-10-04T09:27:29Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I don’t know how you worked out that I have it backwards from what I said? Because you’re making out like the issue is ‘who is the most common target of wardecs?’ It doesn’t matter if null alliances are the people who get dec’d most often, the problem with the mechanic is " this mechanic was having a **significant impact on player recruitment and retention** ”, as Veryez quotes. That means your statement of > [@Dracvlad](#): > > Oh and thanks for confirming that most people killed by WD’s are passing nullsec pilots in hisec, for some reason forum dwellers seemed to refute that. backwards in relation to the problem at hand. The forum dwellers aren’t refuting that most of the people killed by WDs are nullsec pilots. **We don’t care who gets killed the most**. I don’t care which of your friends you smack most often, I care that you also slap around a toddler while you’re at it. ---
**Author:** ![Kuklo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kuklo/32/162907_2.png) [@Kuklo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kuklo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/524 "2018-10-04T09:29:00Z")
> [@Veryez](#): > > _ **significant impact on player recruitment and retention** _ . **No one cares about pilots without assets in space**. If the players scared about to lose ship in space and If CCP worried about that, then this game is no more eve online. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/525 "2018-10-04T09:31:47Z")
How about revenue? Do they shouldn’t care too? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/526 "2018-10-04T09:31:52Z")
> [@Kuklo](#): > > **No one cares about pilots without assets in space**. Wrong. We care about _how to get those pilots back out in space_. You can be overly-dramatic and cry about ‘no more eve online’ all you want, but that’s not what’s going on at all. The idea here is that some people who are new to the game are less comfortable with the same level of risk. As they acclimate, they become _more_ comfortable with it, accept it as part of the cost of doing business, and start to explore PvP options. But if they get driven off early, they never _reach_ that point. And that’s bad for everyone, because it means fewer people with assets in space. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/527 "2018-10-04T09:32:13Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Because you’re making out like the issue is ‘who is the most common target of wardecs?’ It doesn’t matter if null alliances are the people who get dec’d most often, the problem with the mechanic is " this mechanic was having a **significant impact on player recruitment and retention** ”, as Veryez quotes. I keep saying this to him, he was even the one who linked the quote to me. Yet he believes the issue is no objectives in wars. When it’s not, it’s player retention. ---
**Author:** ![Kuklo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kuklo/32/162907_2.png) [@Kuklo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kuklo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/528 "2018-10-04T09:34:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The idea here is that some people who are new to the game are less comfortable with the same level of risk. > [@Kuklo](#): > > There are no point to touch new players. 🤦🏿‍♂️ My god ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/529 "2018-10-04T09:35:31Z")
Why are you focussing on new players only, the comment also said player retention. 🙄 You seem to be taking that as the impact only on new players and their retention, not retention of players who get war decked no matter their age, bluntly put what do you define as new? Still not sure what point you are trying to make. > [@Arrendis](#): > > The forum dwellers aren’t refuting that most of the people killed by WDs are nullsec pilots. Actually they did, was funny to see. All that is important to me is that there is a way to end the war by fighting and there are consequences for war decking the wrong people if they go with the structure idea. Everything else is hot wind and babble. CCP please please please do the Jin’taan idea and make it so that anyone at war with them can shoot all their other war dec structures, please please please…, pretty please with cream on it…, Make Hisec Great Again!!! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/530 "2018-10-04T09:41:59Z")
> [@Kuklo](#): > > My god Sorry, even I’m not arrogant enough to claim to be your god. Also, I’m an atheist. But no matter how much you may claim there’s no point going after new players, _people still do it_. That’s what folks are talking about addressing. If you think it doesn’t need to be addressed, CCP’s actual data says you’re wrong. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > All that is important to me is that there is a way to end the war by fighting and there are consequences for war decking the wrong people if they go with the structure idea. Everything else is hot wind and babble. There’s already ways to end the war by fighting. It’s called ‘blowing them up more than they blow you up’. The people who aren’t even trying are the folks who end up leaving the game, according to CCP’s data. They’d like to retain those players. I’d like those players to stick around long enough to develop an interest in PvP, same as happened to me when I started as one of those ‘I have no desire to PvP’ players. Peoples’ tastes change. They get over initial anxieties. But to do that, they need to not be driven off early. Just giving them another ‘hey, why not do the exact thing you don’t want to do’ isn’t going to help _at all_. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > Why are you focussing on new players only, the comment also said player retention. Previous data released by CCP has demonstrated that if you stay for 6 months, you’ll stay for 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/531 "2018-10-04T09:42:17Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Is also an issue in that there was no consequences, now there will be and this in itself will reduce the size of war deckers as they scrabble around for targets that don’t bite back. So you mean Wardecs will continue to target the very people that the issue is with, those that don’t bite back but instead disengage from the game. Structures for the war deccers don’t help the game in any way. They promote blobbing and picking on smaller targets without realistic opportunity to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/532 "2018-10-04T09:44:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > **There’s already ways to end the war by fighting. It’s called ‘blowing them up more than they blow you up** ’. The people who aren’t even trying are the folks who end up leaving the game, according to CCP’s data. They’d like to retain those players. I’d like those players to stick around long enough to develop an interest in PvP, same as happened to me when I started as one of those ‘I have no desire to PvP’ players. Peoples’ tastes change. They get over initial anxieties. But to do that, they need to not be driven off early. > > Just giving them another ‘hey, why not do the exact thing you don’t want to do’ isn’t going to help _at all_ . Well you have no idea at all then and it is a waste of time engaging with you on this subject. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > So you mean Wardecs will continue to target the very people that the issue is with, those that don’t bite back but instead disengage from the game. > Structures for the war deccers don’t help the game in any way. > They promote blobbing and picking on smaller targets without realistic opportunity to fight back. I expect more from you, the players got into this mess, one group using the imbalance to be super elite green killboard players and the others disengaging, if you want to keep Eve as it is you want to see Eve players start to play more like Eve players, taking the fight and winning. This is all about changing attitude first and foremost. Currently there is no value in fighting back, being able to end the war is a big lovely value, that some of them will not bother is nether here or there, but some will and that will create change. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/533 "2018-10-04T09:47:41Z")
Actual footage of a wardeccer playing EVE online: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/c/1/c1f0aec1a04c5623b8e2aeab86c7cc61f389c6aa.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/534 "2018-10-04T09:48:22Z")
The majority of wardec corps aren’t looking for fights. They’re looking for their paychecks. They get hired to do these wardecs. Or they figure they can convince their victims to buy them off. If you fight back, competently, they run. If you do it consistently, they’ll drop the dec and look for easier prey or (if hired), they’ll maintain the dec but not really go after you because they’ll be losing money in the deal. The issue is not ways to win. The issue is ways to keep the people who don’t want to PvP from giving up on the game before they can learn to give PvP a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/535 "2018-10-04T09:49:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The majority of wardec corps aren’t looking for fights. They’re looking for their paychecks Rubbish, that is incorrect, no wonder you have no idea. > [@Arrendis](#): > > hey’re looking for their paychecks. They get hired to do these wardecs. A very small part of their income actually. A greater part of their income is from acting like the Mafia with protection money. Why do you think PIRAT had all those bots in supers… ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/536 "2018-10-04T09:50:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The issue is not ways to win. The issue is ways to keep the people who don’t want to PvP from giving up on the game before they can learn to give PvP a chance. wrong, it’s not about learning people a pvp chance, because there will always be people who don’t want combat pvp, and you just excluded them from sandbox which supposed to promote all kind of activities not just that particular one. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/537 "2018-10-04T10:00:16Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > you just excluded them from sandbox No, I didn’t, but way to read things into a statement that aren’t there. Yes, there will be people who never develop a taste for PvP. Those people will either stay, or they won’t, and no amount of fiddling with wardecs (which they will _always_ avoid) will alter that calculus. If they leave the game because they have to dock up for a week, they’ll leave the game in 4-5 months because something happened and they had to dock up for a week. Maybe they got ganked, and lost their mining ship. Maybe they worked for months to get a marauder, and had it blown away on an undock by a dozen T1 destroyers in a 0.5 system. One way or another, non-consentual PvP comes to all of us eventually. The people who will never develop a tolerance for it will never develop a tolerance for it. But others will, and they won’t be driven off by it. And those are the people that a change in wardec mechanics will help. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > A greater part of their income is from acting like the Mafia with protection money. I really _love_ how you didn’t include literally the _next sentence_ when you quoted me to response with this. > [@Arrendis](#): > > They’re looking for their paychecks. They get hired to do these wardecs. **Or they figure they can convince their victims to buy them off.** That’s a protection racket. Extortion. Congratulations telling me I’m incorrect **AND THEN DISAGREEING BY SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING I JUST SAID.** ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/538 "2018-10-04T10:09:55Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Maybe they got ganked, and lost their mining ship. Maybe they worked for months to get a marauder, and had it blown away on an undock by a dozen T1 destroyers in a 0.5 system. One way or another, non-consentual PvP comes to all of us eventually. The people who will never develop a tolerance for it will never develop a tolerance for it. But others will, and they won’t be driven off by it. And those are the people that a change in wardec mechanics will help. you twisting your own words: > [@Arrendis](#): > > The issue is not ways to win. The issue is ways to keep the people who don’t want to PvP from giving up on the game before they can learn to give PvP a chance. everybody who start to play EvE should know that there is non-consensual pvp, like the ones you described, no amount of pvp experience save you from ganking your marauder. Forcing non-pvp to learn combat pvp is no go, won’t work, never. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/539 "2018-10-04T10:15:41Z")
Very simple. Wardeccers would not be doing PvP if they would not like killing. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/540 "2018-10-04T10:16:42Z")
> [@Kuklo](#): > > Form fleet @ kill aggressor. This achieves nothing as the war still goes on. There needs to be a meaningful objective that both sides are motivated to actually fight over. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/541 "2018-10-04T10:16:44Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The majority of wardec corps aren’t looking for fights. They’re looking for their paychecks. **They get hired to do these wardecs.** By putting the pay check as mercs first indicated to me that you thought that was their main income source. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Or they figure they can convince their victims to buy them off. Yes the extortion part, the protection racket, which I did not pay as much attention as I should have, but yes you get it if you understand that this is their main income source > [@Arrendis](#): > > If you fight back, competently, they run. If you do it consistently, they’ll drop the dec and look for easier prey or (if hired), they’ll maintain the dec but not really go after you because they’ll be losing money in the deal. Fighting back makes no real difference, in fact doing so makes you more interesting, and you used to get more war decs… Not so much now though. > [@Arrendis](#): > > The issue is not ways to win. The issue is ways to keep the people who don’t want to PvP from giving up on the game before they can learn to give PvP a chance. And this is why you do not get it, the people who will move on to do PvP and stuff will want to fight back to win and winning is in their face by ending the war dec and don’t forget that they are facing bling fitted high SP players, and if they can combine with others of the same mind you get a change in the game due to results. And this is the only part that matters. Do you know who this corp is ‘Omega And Friends Medialabs?’ [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=26) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=28)