# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/562 "2018-10-04T10:47:56Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > The biggest issue I see with this is what Jin said, you don’t want to have a corporation with 100 hulks immune to war decs. You can already have this now. And do - belts are full of NPC corp barges and exhumers you can’t do anything but bump or gank. Adding a social corp that is just like the NPC-corp and chat channel system many veterans have figured out won’t change the existing balance a bit. It would just give groups more permanence as they move from war-ready to war-immune status, accepting the appropriate limitations of course. What should have happened is that the NPC corp have additional limits on things like say no capital ships (Freighters) or exhumers but that ship has sailed. Finding acceptable differences to separate social/NPC corps from competitive corps will be part of the challenge for CCP during this revamp. Taxes and structures are the obvious ones, but there really should be more reasons to either be in a competitive corp, or to go to war, if they want the mechanic to be used more. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/563 "2018-10-04T10:48:32Z")
Its just declaration and then you have to pay a fee to kill, but CONCORD always takes money without even asking “why war”? There is some kind of Yulai Convention but I never saw any. Probably what is written there is only “Everyone can massacre everyone if he gives us some of those bloodstained ISKies” ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/564 "2018-10-04T10:49:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Hitting the other 3 _too hard_ doesn’t mean they didn’t hit the Loki hard enough. I don’t want to get into a debate on how to balance the T3Cs and that wasn’t my intention. My point is simply that even processes that people think are good can result in things still not being balanced. So those who think focus groups of “experts” result in better outcomes don’t really have a leg to stand on. Whether it’s through elections or through focus groups, if CCP decides they want to do something, player feedback only goes so far. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/565 "2018-10-04T10:49:34Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > There is some kind of Yulai Convention but I never saw any. Having an actual produceable text of the Yulai Convention resolutions would be _awesome_, really. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/566 "2018-10-04T10:50:09Z")
Truf. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/567 "2018-10-04T10:50:59Z")
I’m not sure where lies the root of the wardec problem, without finding patient zero we don’t know how to threat the patient. Is Brisc idea to remove it completely so stupid? War in HS exists only because of Concord, but Concord is only for vengeance. What was the HS before Concord in terms of wars? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/568 "2018-10-04T10:52:30Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > What was the HS before Concord in terms of wars? The Amarr Empire attacking the Jove, and Minmatar slaves rebelling and rising up to rip themselves out of slavery and found the Republic. It’s been 120 years since CONCORD was established by the Yulai Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/569 "2018-10-04T10:54:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Small corp, loses a lot of POCOs, hasn’t had a combat kill/loss in the last month. You might want to look into that a bit deeper, you might learn something. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And what you don’t get is that a fair chunk of the people who’ll dock up and log off in the first month or two, and never look back… give them eight months, a year, and they _won’t do that_ . A lot of folks just need a certain amount of time to get used to things before they start taking more risks, especially if they don’t have more experienced players to give them support and guidance. I have never actually said that you were wrong with that, however I am looking at something that makes hisec more interesting in terms of war decs, in other words make hisec wars fun and engaging that people want to go and fight against. At the moment they are one big turn off. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/570 "2018-10-04T10:55:35Z")
Or I might not give a damn about any one specific corp, or someone who wants to be all cryptic about crap. If you’ve a point to make, make it. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 10:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/571 "2018-10-04T10:55:46Z")
I meant was Concord in-game from the begining or was in introduced later for keeping HS “safe”. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/572 "2018-10-04T11:02:20Z")
Well, CONCORD’s the folks who decide which systems _are_ High-Sec, so… yeah, they’ve been there. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/573 "2018-10-04T11:03:09Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I have never actually said that you were wrong with that, however I am looking at something that makes hisec more interesting in terms of war decs, in other words make hisec wars fun and engaging that people want to go and fight against. At the moment they are one big turn off. That’s great, but it’s completely not germane to the current issues with wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/574 "2018-10-04T11:03:18Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > ![](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/40/80841_1.png) nomadd79: > > > Ganking has costs. Unlike war decs. > > What!?!? 😆 It’s cheaper to gank then war dec 😆 Perhaps I should be more specific. No one is going to gank a empty shuttle or empty iteron with a tornado. Why is that? Because there is a cost-benefit calculation that determines who is a viable target. This calculation includes the DPS required to kill the target ship, the speed of concord response given the system security and the number of ganks ships that will be required to kill the target before getting concorded. Once war is declared however every ship no matter the cargo and no matter the value becomes a cost-free target for the individual pilot blowing it up. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > And this is why people like you don’t decide to make ridiculous and stupid, abuseable changes because you don’t think about all the other mechanics it effects. If you think this is “_ridiculous, stupid and abuseable_” then by all means tell us why. That is what a discussion is for. But I will say again, I don’t see why a war dec structure should be any harder to kill than _at the very least_ a low power astra in wormhole space. This is my opinion. If you really are trying to contribute to the discussion and not just defend the status quo, explain to me why i’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/575 "2018-10-04T11:05:18Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Or I might not give a damn about any one specific corp, or someone who wants to be all cryptic about crap. If you’ve a point to make, make it. So you just proved to me that you get the extortion bit, but never replied to me if you think that merc war dec fees comes way below extortion income. But how much deeper does your knowledge go on the most successful hisec war decker and their activities. I am not here to tell you, I am merely gauging whether you get the full picture. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s great, but it’s completely not germane to the current issues with wardecs. You want an argument, and bait post, you want to be right and win your forum war. All that is important to me is that they apply the structures as per Jin’taan’s suggestion, what you think and say or bait on is irrelevant and a waste of time. I said they were a turn off, which is the issue and you said that it is not the current issue, wrong! ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/576 "2018-10-04T11:06:11Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > I meant was Concord in-game from the begining or was in introduced later for keeping HS “safe”. HS is not meant to be 100% safe. Concord exist to punish, not to protect. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/577 "2018-10-04T11:08:57Z")
So ganking is fairest PvP there is? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/578 "2018-10-04T11:09:02Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > But how much deeper does your knowledge go on the most successful hisec war decker and their activities. I highly doubt a 25-man corp is ‘the most successful hisec war decker’. @Tora_Bushido, these guys more successful than Marmite, you think? > [@Dracvlad](#): > > You want an argument, and bait post, you want to be right and win your forum war. No, I want to have a discussion about the _actual issues_ and potential solutions. Jin’taan’s idea is one, but it’s not the only one, and it’s not exactly a _good_ one when it comes to getting people who don’t want to PvP out to fight. Cuz it’s not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/579 "2018-10-04T11:09:13Z")
That is why “” marks on safe. Anybody have timeline of war declaration system changes? ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/580 "2018-10-04T11:16:02Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I highly doubt a 25-man corp is ‘the most successful hisec war decker’. @Tora_Bushido, these guys more successful that Marmite, you think? Well this is going to be amusing, Tora might actually tell you who they are. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, I want to have a discussion about the _actual issues_ and potential solutions. Jin’taan’s idea is one, but it’s not the only one, and it’s not exactly a _good_ one when it comes to getting people who don’t want to PvP out to fight. Cuz it’s not gonna happen. No you don’t, you have not even said why it is not a good idea, just that it is not a good idea. Furthermore those people that you say do not want to PvP in hisec is that everyone in hisec? Or 20% of them or what? And what about those that want to fight and have something of value to go for, that they and others also war decked and of a like mind can get into a fleet and do? Cuz you have feelings they don’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/581 "2018-10-04T11:21:02Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Perhaps I should be more specific. > > No one is going to gank a empty shuttle or empty iteron with a tornado. They do, daily but not in tornados. I know, I do it myself on alphas. > [@nomadd79](#): > > If you really are trying to contribute to the discussion and not just defend the status quo, explain to me why i’m wrong. I’ve contributed many times over this thread, many other threads and discussions. Disagreeing with people and stating why is contributing and not “defending the status quo”. As ive said before, how can one contribute to a solution without first knowing the main issue? Because there is a very distance view between opinion in this thread about what is the actual problem. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=28) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=30)