# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/582 "2018-10-04T11:21:09Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Well this is going to be amusing, Tora might actually tell you who they are. Maybe he will. Maybe I’ll give a fetid fedo fart. Regardless of the first, the second’s not terribly likely, though. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > No you don’t, you have not even said why it is not a good idea, just that it is not a good idea. Really, it’s very simple: You cannot make people who do not want to do X to do X if they don’t have to. And they don’t have to. They can go play other games if they want. They can go play World of Warships or something. Or E:D, or WoW, or any of a _hundred_ other games. If they don’t want to fight, they’re not going to fight. It doesn’t matter how much you go ‘but look, now you can shoot this thing over here, too!’ They don’t want to shoot that thing. It’s like saying ‘look, I know you don’t like broccoli, but look! I made broccoli! And I chopped it up into smaller bites! What do you mean you still don’t like broccoli?’ > [@Dracvlad](#): > > Furthermore those people that you say do not want to PvP in hisec is that everyone in hisec? Or 20% of them or what? It doesn’t matter how large a percentage they are. They’re people who the data shows are _leaving the game because of this mechanic_. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > And what about those that want to fight and have something of value to go for, that they and others also war decked and of a like mind can get into a fleet and do? Cuz you have feelings they don’t exist? For them, _the system is already working_. If you want to fight, GO FIGHT. If you’re getting frustrated that the war dec corp runs away too much, _hunt them_. Hunt their station campers. Get in their faces. Give them no rest. **That has nothing to do with the problem identified in the data CCP presented to the CSM.** ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/583 "2018-10-04T11:30:33Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Really, it’s very simple: You cannot make people who do not want to do X to do X if they don’t have to. And they don’t have to. They can go play other games if they want. They can go play World of Warships or something. Or E:D, or WoW, or any of a _hundred_ other games. If they don’t want to fight, they’re not going to fight. It doesn’t matter how much you go ‘but look, now you can shoot this thing over here, too!’ They don’t want to shoot that thing. And you are certain of this, so much so that you would not want to even see if anyone would, you are that certain. Hmmm, interesting… > [@Arrendis](#): > > It’s like saying ‘look, I know you don’t like broccoli, but look! I made broccoli! And I chopped it up into smaller bites! What do you mean you still don’t like broccoli?’ Silly statement, but if it means something to you then go ahead. > [@Arrendis](#): > > It doesn’t matter how large a percentage they are. They’re people who the data shows are _leaving the game because of this mechanic_ . And this is your assumption, and you know that for certain, these are all people who did not want to PvP, you are certain of that. Well nothing I can say will change your mind on that so I won’t bother. > [@Arrendis](#): > > For them, _the system is already working_ . If you want to fight, GO FIGHT. If you’re getting frustrated that the war dec corp runs away too much, _hunt them_ . Hunt their station campers. Get in their faces. Give them no rest. **That has nothing to do with the problem identified in the data CCP presented to the CSM.** Again you are pushing your own feelings on this, so what you are saying to new players that want to PvP, go after the most risk averse bling fitted high SP players in the game who will just farm them and make them feel like a bad useless player and at the end if they gather enough to create enough risk they just dock up and they can do nothing about it. Great exposure to Eve’s PvP isn’t it? No wonder people who want to PvP also stop? It is terrible game play and CCP knows it now, it is in the war dec part, which is good to see, about time, took long enough. So you are arguing against CCP’s views now, which is funny. I am out of here, enjoy your feelings as if they matter… **You feel that all those people who log off and do not bother are only people that do not PvP anyway. This is your feeling, this is what you believe and you are wrong. Nothing more to say on it. So keep trolling mate.** ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/584 "2018-10-04T11:30:50Z")
“They also want to see a scenario where the defenders who may not normally be interested in wars would engage in them as they see a clear scenario where they can get a victory condition and end it.” and what that victory conditions may be? ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/585 "2018-10-04T11:32:22Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > what is the actual problem. The problem, I think we all recognise, is that war decs are hurting player retention. In my opinion the reason for this is because there is nothing meaningful that players in war dec’d corps can do to change the situation so (as the minutes point out) they just log off. Having a target to go after will give many war dec’d corps a singular objective (ie end the war) which a reason to log in, to plan, to strategise, to form up, to undock and to fight. Even if they go after the structure and lose the fight the bonds formed by trying will, IMHO, reverse the trend of logging off and finding something else to do which is what, IMHO, is hurting player retention. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/586 "2018-10-04T11:35:38Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It’s like saying ‘look, I know you don’t like broccoli, but look! I made broccoli! And I chopped it up into smaller bites! What do you mean you still don’t like broccoli?’ If broccoli is PvP, then not every broccoli dish is equal. Some may be tastier, some less. The issue is to prepare dish that will be eaten. Or at least nobody will escape from house because its awful and served on every day. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/587 "2018-10-04T11:37:24Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > And you are certain of this, so much so that you would not want to even see if anyone would, you are that certain. I am certain that you cannot force someone to engage in a voluntary activity they have no interest in engaging in, yes. That’s kind of what it means to be a _voluntary_ activity: they have to choose to do it. If they don’t want to do it, why would they waste their time when they could be doing something they want to do? > [@Dracvlad](#): > > And this is your assumption No, it’s not. > CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention. It’s CCP’s data. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/588 "2018-10-04T11:40:26Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > If broccoli is PvP, then not every broccoli dish is equal. Some may be tastier, some less. And some people just don’t like broccoli, no matter how you serve it. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/589 "2018-10-04T11:42:52Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > I think we all recognise, is that war decs are hurting player retention. That’s the problem, not everyone does. This is how I see it plain and simple, you and drac believe having an objective will make players engage in the war decs potentially solving the player retention issue. Me and @Arrendis believe that linking with structures would not encourage engagement (as the mindset wouldn’t change) and still have the same issue we have now with people logging off and not playing, effecting the player retention. There is no ‘feelings’ or 'defending status quo just differences in opinion which we each feel strongly about. You believe they will engage, we believe they won’t. This consistent backwards and forwards is absolutely pointless as neither will change their opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/590 "2018-10-04T11:48:32Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > This is how I see it plain and simple, you and drac believe having an objective will make players engage in the war decs potentially solving the player retention issue. You and Arrendis believe that all players who leave or do not log in while they have war decs have no interest in PvP. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/591 "2018-10-04T11:49:42Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > You and Arrendis believe that all players who leave or do not log in while they have war decs have no interest in PvP. I believe the statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/592 "2018-10-04T11:50:02Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Me and @Arrendis believe that linking with structures would not encourage engagement (as the mindset wouldn’t change) and still have the same issue we have now with people logging off and not playing, effecting the player retention. Correct. I don’t believe that people who don’t want to fight now will want to fight if they’re given a specific target, at a location of their enemy’s choosing, to attack. Even over and above the issue of ‘they don’t want to PvP’, it’s kind of _begging_ to be used as a trap for the corp that got the dec dropped on their heads. “Oh, we can attack that thing? Great, we’ll just go and… get… farmed. Ow. RIP everyone’s stuff for no benefit, doing something we don’t like.” Yeah. I _totally_ see people loving that scenario. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > You and Arrendis believe that all players who leave or do not log in while they have war decs have no interest in PvP. I believe that the players who have an interest in PvP _already engage in PvP while under a war declaration_, yes. It’s kind of a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/593 "2018-10-04T11:50:09Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I believe the statistics. You don’t have any! If you did you would detail them. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/594 "2018-10-04T11:51:21Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I believe that the players who have an interest in PvP _already engage in PvP while under a war declaration_ , yes. It’s kind of a no-brainer. You believe, people believe the Earth is flat. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/595 "2018-10-04T11:52:10Z")
CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention. Do we continue or you quite done? ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/596 "2018-10-04T11:52:48Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Me and @Arrendis believe that linking with structures would not encourage engagement (as the mindset wouldn’t change) and still have the same issue we have now with people logging off and not playing, effecting the player retention. While I agree that some who will not change their mindset, as you put it, I can assure you that there are **many** people in **many** corps who would grab the opportunity to fight back with both hands if there was a meaningful goal to be achieved. Do you really think no one would take the opportunity to end wars early with some PVP? If some still won’t is that a reason to not do it? Imagine what nullsec wars would be like if the defenders just docked up and the attackers just waited at gates and choke points for ships to gank for a week and then went home. They actually have **real** wars with structures to fight over and end up with thousands of people across several corps and alliances joining forces for some of the biggest fights in gaming history. But somehow this won’t work in high sec? And who know, if players saw other players successfully fighting of war decs, that would go a long way to changing the mindset of other players who currently don’t think there’s a point even trying to fighti the likes of PIRAT ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/597 "2018-10-04T11:53:48Z")
> CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention. You said statistics… The question is how many of those people would not act like that if they had something meaningful to do. You and Arrendis are certain it is zero. That is one hell of an assumption. And you need to prove that none of those people would have done any PvP, as it is your assumption. @Brisc_Rubal and @Steve_Ronuken Any views on this for us plebs, I mean Arrendis is a propaganda type figure in Goonwaffe who wants more cannon fodder in nullsec and gnsadowninja is PIRAT who wants to continue to easy kill farm, but you are CSM, what do you think? I am not going to continue to engage with them as it is a colossal waste of time, but anything you can say on this will be appreciated. For my part I have seen so many forum posts by newer players who wanted to fight but found it too big a hill to climb and had to just endure. I spoke to many people in hisec who wanted to fight and saw no benefit and more importantly no chance. Putting this structure in that will enable them to end the war and other wars is something that I feel will work, not for everyone, but it will get rid of the hopeless feeling that so many hisec players have. Initial conversations so far with a number of hisec players have been very positive, there was from a number of people real excitement. I feel it too. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/598 "2018-10-04T11:55:59Z")
No idea who you’re talking about, but Marmite is the highest ranked mercenary alliance in Eve on zkillboard and #15 overal. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/599 "2018-10-04T11:59:14Z")
> [@nomadd79](#): > > Imagine what nullsec wars would be like if the defenders just docked up and the attackers just waited at gates and choke points for ships to gank for a week and then going home. > > They actually have **real** wars with structures to fight over and end up with thousands of people across several corps and alliances joining forces for some of the biggest fights in gaming history. But somehow this won’t work in high sec? This won’t work in hisec, no. We have ‘real’ wars with structures where as soon as one side figures out they can’t win _[they](https://zkillboard.com/kill/72490984/) just [don’t](https://zkillboard.com/kill/72492250/) decide to [show](https://zkillboard.com/kill/72492473/) the hell [up](https://zkillboard.com/kill/72497157/)_. Four keepstars in one day. Defenders don’t show up. They just… docked up. The most expensive things in the game, and they’d already given up. Imagine it? I don’t have to imagine it, it’s been the shape of the nullsec warfare I’ve been in the middle of for **years**. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/600 "2018-10-04T11:59:54Z")
Thanks, Tora. Well, @Dracvlad _got any statistics_? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/601 "2018-10-04T12:00:37Z")
We get wars and most of people are refugees because if not they get bullet to the spaceship. People dont like being massacred, and they dont learn how to fight because they dont like getting bullet to the spaceship. They run from war. War is only between those who have interest in it, the rest is runnning away. We will not change world and human nature, but we can protect common folk so will not have to run any longer. Yulai Convention needs to be “written” anew. I am proposing new classification of corporations. Social, and antisocial. Antisocial could fight only antisocial. Social cant fight and cant be in fight. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=29) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=31)