# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/623 "2018-10-04T13:16:07Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > There is no functional difference between a group staying in the NPC corp and using a chat channel, and a social, war-immune corp. Can’t buy office space, can’t run industry as a corp, can’t share assets out of hangars, can’t pool resources into corporate wallets. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/624 "2018-10-04T13:19:49Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > When you live in a region where many systems have 11 havens, 7 sanctums, and 30 ratting supers… you might be surprised. When CCP lift the nerf hammer and brings it down in the name of ‘fixing’ bounties, would it be preferable for it to smash into the ships, or smash the anomalies? ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/625 "2018-10-04T13:22:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Blowing people up and taking ther stuff is definitely a viable goal. However, the _effect_ of the blanket wardec isn’t to promote fights, but—again, according to CCP Larrikin’s data—to drive people out of the game. Sure. I addressed with the social corp. People who don’t like being in wars can form a social corp. Groups that have had enough of warring, can move themselves back in there. Wars are already optional for the individual player as you can opt-out to the NPC corp at anytime. Give that ability to groups and there will be no need to not undock for weeks if they have had enough. Wardecs aren’t going away. Even blanket wardeccing. At least not unless or until a replacement mechanic to contest structures is developed and implemented. The best you can do to try to keep people who are being driven out of the game due to wars is give them a way to get out of wars they don’t want to be in (or opt-out in advance), and the only viable way to do that seems to me some social corp or equivalent. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Can’t buy office space, can’t run industry as a corp, can’t share assets out of hangars, can’t pool resources into corporate wallets. Yes, the other minor corp perks. I would be in favour of removing all of them from social corps as well. The problem is how to do so if you allow corps the ability to return to a social status. I guess you could freeze the ability to put things/ISK into them, but allow things to be taken out? This is one of the things that needs to be sorted out. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/626 "2018-10-04T13:25:01Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I’m confused, the way I just read this is you quoted me and repeated what I said would be the issue. TNOH = Total Number Of Hulks SCML = Social Corporation Member Limit Number of Required Social Corporations = ( TNOH / SCML ) e.g., TNOH = 100 SCML = 25 Number of Social Corporations = 4 > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Just to add, as stated it wouldn’t be much different from the current mechanics of 100 hulks sitting in a NPC corp but with a social corp it may let new players feel like they’re building something. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Can’t buy office space, can’t run industry as a corp, can’t share assets out of hangars, can’t pool resources into corporate wallets. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/627 "2018-10-04T13:29:28Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > When CCP lift the nerf hammer and brings it down in the name of ‘fixing’ bounties, would it be preferable for it to smash into the ships, or smash the anomalies? The anomalies ofc. If you would nerf the ships, you would have to rebalance almost every ship (well, in practice you would have to balance all carriers, VNI, Gila, Ishtar and rattle, but any other ship might compensate for it…). I already suggested a way on how to do that without nerfing anomalies directly (introduce spawn delay from spawn to spawn within them). 5 seconds per wave would nerf supers by around 11% by my estimates. More if they are faster than 4 minutes a site, less so if they take longer. Carriers would receive about half of that nerf and rattles another half of that and VNI’s a little less than rattles. If you need more, bump up the spawn delay gradually until you are happy. Note: that’s targeted at Isk per hour. Not sure how much that would end up being in the end, as pilots may make up for that by ratting longer. But that’s the case for pretty much any nerf, so… ---
**Author:** ![gregora\_mai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gregora_mai/32/123476_2.png) [@gregora\_mai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gregora_mai)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/628 "2018-10-04T13:36:52Z")
CCP is nerving HS Wars from time to time. Currently it is not as easy as years ago to hunt targets and bring them down. I am not talkiing about Trade Hub Camping. Getting a contract to generate tears and fullfill it. No watchlist etc. It is only manuel work and this makes fun. But when they nerv it to death. That would be a pitty. I am scared that they will nerv it down to death and not in a way MERCs could handle it. Would not be first time in EVE… ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/629 "2018-10-04T13:37:48Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Yes, the other minor corp perks. I would be in favour of removing all of them from social corps as well. Leave the major perks, like anchoring structures? No. Leave the little things, give Social Corporations a reason to grow into a state where they feel confident to put down their own structure. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/630 "2018-10-04T13:47:18Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > When CCP lift the nerf hammer and brings it down in the name of ‘fixing’ bounties, would it be preferable for it to smash into the ships, or smash the anomalies? Neither. But it’d be nice if they’d fix the _bounties_ themselves. Fixing proliferation of the ships should come via encouraging more destruction. Anoms being delayed means ships not being in space. If they’re not in space, they can’t blow up. Fixing capitals and supercapitals themselves (not just addressing ‘there’s more than we ever expected!’) is a whole _other_ issue. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/631 "2018-10-04T13:49:23Z")
> [@Mingja](#): > > I already suggested a way on how to do that without nerfing anomalies directly (introduce spawn delay from spawn to spawn within them). 5 seconds per wave would nerf supers by around 11% by my estimates. More if they are faster than 4 minutes a site, less so if they take longer. If the CSM Summit notes correctly identify ratting in supers as a problem and the average super tick is 30-35 million, a reduction by the estimate of %11 drops the payout to 27-31 million. Still pretty good ISK/hour. The AFK VNI pilots won’t care, they’re already AFK… Not to say the idea doesn’t have merit, it just as you allude to, might need to be a bit more adaptive. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/632 "2018-10-04T13:52:07Z")
Wardecs are probably the best learning tool in the game for newer players. Better than anything CCP has provided. -Bookmarks -Safe Spots -D-Scaning -Watch local -Watch map -Fit correctly -Communication with other corp members The list is endless in the acceleration of combat awareness in EVE. Wardecs prepare people for life outside of highsec. The ones that complain about Wardecs? The lazy, the multiboxers who afk/bot and pay no attention, wanting safe haven in highsec collecting that easy Isk, with no intention of leaving it, the large null sec entities that want free transport in highsec while their mutiboxing gank squads reek havoc on anyone else and get praised all over the forums. These are the people you want to protect? So lets not make it out that Wardeccers are the scourge of EVE and all will be well when you destroy their content. Wardeccers do more good for the newbro in highsec than any of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/633 "2018-10-04T13:52:31Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Neither. But it’d be nice if they’d fix the _bounties_ themselves. Elaborate on “Fix” ? Wholesale reduction of 0.0 bounties by %25 or some other magic % ? ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/634 "2018-10-04T14:00:36Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > > Loading… > > Leave the major perks, like anchoring structures? No. Leave the little things, give Social Corporations a reason to grow into a state where they feel confident to put down their own structure. There needs to be some advantage to being in a corp that is at risk of attack by all the other competitive corps in New Eden. I’m not going to be dogmatic and say a social corp has to be 100% identical to an NPC corp, but I really think the set of bonuses beyond the social ones needs to be limited to differentiate the two. That said, I would favour giving new bonuses to competitive corps, on top of what they have today. But this is putting the cart before the horse. We don’t even know that CCP is going to tackle wars in the near future, let alone what solution they are going to go for to give corps more control over the risks (and rewards) they are willing to accept. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/635 "2018-10-04T14:11:08Z")
Hard to say. I’m not in favor of any attempt to just do some half-assed minor tweak and think it’ll actually fix problems. The whole system needs to be evaluated and critically looked at, along with a comprehensive picture of what it’s _supposed_ to be and do. Until you know what the thing’s supposed to look like, how can you ‘fix’ it? ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/636 "2018-10-04T14:11:54Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Wardecs prepare people for life outside of highsec. This assumes a new player wishes to leave high security space. When I started out low security space was the place you went for that “Factional Warfare” thing and Null Security space is where you went to die. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > The ones that complain about Wardecs? The lazy, the multiboxers who afk/bot and pay no attention, wanting safe haven in highsec collecting that easy Isk, with no intention of leaving it, the large null sec entities that want free transport in highsec while their mutiboxing gank squads reek havoc on anyone else and get praised all over the forums. The CSM Summit Notes explicitly state that super ratting is the largest pain point on issues relating to ISK generation sources. Where in high security space are all these supers to which you refer? > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > So lets not make it out that Wardeccers are the scourge of EVE and all will be well when you destroy their content. According to CCP data it will likely be worse for EVE to retain the status quo, especially considering the data as described is pointing to a population that has already been impacted. All will not be well, no, yet it would be a start. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/637 "2018-10-04T14:14:22Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > I’m not going to be dogmatic and say a social corp has to be 100% identical to an NPC corp No, but parity with a NPC corporation is a good starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/638 "2018-10-04T14:17:49Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The whole system needs to be evaluated and critically looked at, along with a comprehensive picture of what it’s _supposed_ to be and do. Correct. Presently CCP Data is showing the mechanic is doing something of concern and ‘senior management’ have to make a decision. Odd with all this forum discussion the direction might ultimately be decided by less than a handful of suits who might not even play the game, but are good with numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/639 "2018-10-04T14:20:26Z")
Frankly, I felt better about decisions like this when CCP had a suit on-staff whose entire _job_ was to understand the numbers. I don’t think they have anyone who understands the EVE Economy even half as well as Dr. E did. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/640 "2018-10-04T14:28:08Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > If the CSM Summit notes correctly identify ratting in supers as a problem and the average super tick is 30-35 million, a reduction by the estimate of %11 drops the payout to 27-31 million. 30-35 million is more like a rattle, which would lose about, maybe 3% (high approximate). Supers rat at up to 130-140 per tick. Even PvP-fit supers rat with like… 80? My highest tick in a thanatos was about 80. that’s 240 mil per hour. Take 5% of that for carriers and thats 12mil. For 400 mio isk/hr Hyperspatial Hels, it’s about 40 mil. That’s a sizeable difference if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Ronuken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/steve_ronuken/32/373894_2.png) [@Steve\_Ronuken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Steve_Ronuken)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/641 "2018-10-04T14:31:02Z")
People who don’t want to fight, won’t fight. Pretty much nothing can be done for them. People who want any fight, this won’t really affect anyway. People who don’t want to have a _meaningless_ fight, they’re the ones we can target. Right now, for the defender, there is _nothing_ they can do which benefits them. Currently if they fight, they don’t end up in a better position than they were before. Most deccers will just fade if they’re organised. The defender cannot force a fight. This is what my proposal has always been pushing on. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/642 "2018-10-04T14:34:24Z")
> [@Mingja](#): > > Supers rat at up to 130-140 per tick No they don’t. Adjust that downward by about a third. Someone tells you they’re getting those ticks _consistently_, and not just when the timing happens to line up right so they get half a site extra on each end, they’re trying to sell you a super. And 5% of 400 mil isn’t 40 mil. It’s 20 mil. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=31) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=33)