# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Nakota\_Joe\_Nakota](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nakota_joe_nakota/32/271922_2.png) [@Nakota\_Joe\_Nakota](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nakota_Joe_Nakota)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/663 "2018-10-04T17:15:46Z")
agreed. the simple fact is that the pirate gate campers take notes on what corps come in and out of trade hubs…then they dec them. if they get a reaction, they dec again after a month or so…if not, they leave the corp on the list for another dec later in the year. it has little or nothing to do with getting paid. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/664 "2018-10-04T17:35:33Z")
Yes, they probably would because they need it to be so. m ---
**Author:** ![gregora\_mai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gregora_mai/32/123476_2.png) [@gregora\_mai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gregora_mai)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/665 "2018-10-04T17:37:01Z")
You are only talking about one Ally in Eve. Wow, please keep all other allys in HS in mind and not only change the whole system to f… up one ally… ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/666 "2018-10-04T17:46:05Z")
I disagree. As it stands the defenders have little recourse if they cannot stand against the campers etc. no place to strike back. They MAY be leaving because they see the futility of staying (I emphasize may because I do not know for sure) But they ARE leaving. Are you proposing that nothing shanger or that no bandaid will work that cannot be exploited so we should remove Wardecs completely as was mentioned in the minutes until a decent model can be designed? Are you advocating for the removal of wardecs @Tora_Bushido and @gnshadowninja ? Because all the stuiff you are saying seems to be arguing for that result. Help fix or help remove. I do not think retaining staus quo is on the table anymore. m ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/667 "2018-10-04T17:57:05Z")
> [@Nakota\_Joe\_Nakota](#): > > agreed. the simple fact is that the pirate gate campers take notes on what corps come in and out of trade hubs…then they dec them. if they get a reaction, they dec again after a month or so…if not, they leave the corp on the list for another dec later in the year. it has little or nothing to do with getting paid. Thanks, the other guy was so wrong. > [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > If commited then will not leave easily. Could just adapt. Sorry it is removing a whole style of game play, it has happened in the past in Eve, for example players who were reprocessing stuff to make their ships, but not to this degree and changing the basis of the game towards too much safety. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/668 "2018-10-04T17:59:55Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Sorry it is removing a whole style of game play Not at all, PvP still is a possibility without wardeccing noobies. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/669 "2018-10-04T18:00:30Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Not at all, PvP still is a possibility without wardeccing noobies. It is not just war decking noobs. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/670 "2018-10-04T18:03:28Z")
Anyway, I dont think they will leave, and if they will, thats just few people vs hordes of players saved. 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/671 "2018-10-04T18:19:34Z")
Some assumptions - People who don’t want to fight won’t fight, regardless of incentive - People who want to fight, either are attackers or left highsec (does not mean all chars) So, what do? Make sure, in a war people who want to fight are involved on both sides. I would scrap none-mutual wars. Then make aggression around structures similar to lowsec. You go suspect while you are shooting the first time. Plus make yourself and/or your corp a legal target for the defender and everybody who wants to pick the defenders side, until the structure timer is resolved. This combined with a public announcement of all structure timers in highsec and who is aggressor and defender with button to opt-in the war. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/672 "2018-10-04T18:28:32Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I do think the numbers are still bad enough to justify turning wars off until that’s coded, but I know that’s going to make the literal handful of groups who do this stuff unhappy. As much as I hate war decs I would seriously caution against removing them altogether until the details of what will replace it are worked out. Having just advocated against the removal of rolling HICs it’s my view that the removal of an entire playstyle for a significant number of players without, at the very least, a roadmap and timetable for what will replace it, would not be the way to go. Again I say this from a position of someone who really hates the “wardec and camp” playstyle. Also I would not want to see HS become 100% safe as that goes against the ethos of New Eden IMHO. if the numbers are as bad as you suggest and you really think that there is no alternative to turning wars off, perhaps it would be a good idea to release some figures to demonstrate why it has to be done. ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/673 "2018-10-04T18:44:55Z")
@Brisc_Rubal @Steve_Ronuken So, with all the talk about wardecs, I think I ought to throw in my version. First, I love being targeted in wardecs. It’s hilarious spanking someone who thinks you ought to be a lay down. So, here’s my thing: have wardecs escalate. Anybody would be able to declare war on anybody, just like now but they are limited in what they can do. Maybe they can just do ewar, maybe tackle. But no damage dealing. If the purpose of war is to interfere with someone’s activities, there are far more options than open shooting. Maybe when someone declares war, they can pay a la carte what they want be allowed to do, things like interference in space, nerfing the targets’ citadels, screwing with their market taxes, whatever. But not shoot. For shooting to happen, the target can freely make the wardec mutual. And I think this might be where victory conditions could come in, maybe based on the pre-war interference. And maybe if they hit their victory conditions, they collect whatever fees the aggressor paid (carrot and stick.) The idea mimics real world international relations, though that wasn’t really my intent. The intent is to have something between all out war and absolute safety. Something newer corps can weather. Something where the target will have a reason to _want_ to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/674 "2018-10-04T19:01:12Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I do think the numbers are still bad enough to justify turning wars off Hmm. Didn’t you say that turning off wars for 6mo until they can get fixed was mere hyperbole? [CSM 13 - High Sec Issues/Suggestions/Ideas - #371 by Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/csm-13-high-sec-issues-suggestions-ideas/84409/371)? Or are you being hyperbolic again? ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/675 "2018-10-04T19:01:23Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And 5% of 400 mil isn’t 40 mil. It’s 20 mil. Ofc is it, just that, at the speed of a super, the nerf would be about 11%. 🙂 Hence the 40 mil. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Someone tells you they’re getting those ticks _consistently_ , I wasn’t specifically talking about consistency. Please, context matters for this. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/676 "2018-10-04T19:07:31Z")
Ticks shmicks. Ratting in null should be more complex. For many reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Zircon\_Dasher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zircon_dasher/32/36736_2.png) [@Zircon\_Dasher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zircon_Dasher)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/677 "2018-10-04T19:16:58Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > You go suspect while you are shooting the first time. Shooting suspects only gives an LE flag to that character. So aggresors go in RR balls and defenders can only fly alpha doctrines. That doesn’t sound like a fun meta to be forced into. Especially with ECM changes. ---
**Author:** ![Cyber\_Fight\_r](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cyber_fight_r/32/167707_2.png) [@Cyber\_Fight\_r](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cyber_Fight_r)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/678 "2018-10-04T19:34:16Z")
It seems Pirat is ok with the wardec changes > [@ANTI PIRAT alliance coalition](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/anti-pirat-alliance-coalition/106166/118): > > Yeah, I am gonna enjoy all single moments in Jita. > I am gonna remeber each of my kill and I am gonna tell the stories about it later. > Too pity, that all you can do is either post on forums or see us flying by from station window. > I am really laughing at you, guys. > > Anyway, even if all wardecs will be changed and became useless, I ll still be proud of being PIRAT - we were never defeated in game, but we caused gamerules to be changed. > > And you gonna be remebered as “ahh this crybaby n00b, whos sorry ass was kicked by PIRAT” > > But this is a recruitment topic! Join this lame alliance till wardecs are not changed! Have your butt kicked by PIRAT! Its your last chance! LOL :)))))) ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/679 "2018-10-04T19:45:48Z")
You could argue the same about any small corp going to 00. Boohoo, we cant wint, we must quit Eve. 😥😥 Adapt and move on! ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/680 "2018-10-04T19:56:00Z")
> [@Mingja](#): > > I wasn’t specifically talking about consistency. You were extrapolating from ‘best tick’ to ‘per hour’. If you’re talking ‘per hour’, you’re talking consistency. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/681 "2018-10-04T20:03:56Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You were extrapolating from ‘best tick’ to ‘per hour’. If you’re talking ‘per hour’, you’re talking consistency. Fair enough. Still, a lot more than the 30 million that were quoted for a super before. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/682 "2018-10-04T21:25:03Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > All of that together I think fixes this problem. Regardless, I do think the numbers are still bad enough to justify turning wars off until that’s coded, but I know that’s going to make the literal handful of groups who do this stuff unhappy. I would actually find it interesting to see what would happen if it was turned off completely for a month. > [@Mike\_Azariah](#): > > Are you advocating for the removal of wardecs @Tora_Bushido and @gnshadowninja ? Because all the stuiff you are saying seems to be arguing for that result. One of my previous posts pretty much said this. Although I love my mechanics I see any fix as a bandaid that will still result in the same outcome further down the line. Don’t get me wrong whatever they do may create more content for certain groups/players but will still be seen as that ‘broken system’ where [insert alliance] pipe & station camps to kill newbies in industirals & drive players away. We fight and lose we got “wasted by real pvpers”, we fight and win “neutral logi noobs”, we dock due to low numbers “scared and hide in a station”. Rarely just get “gf” in local. Been the same story since I started this many many years ago. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=33) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=35)