# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/743 "2018-10-05T11:39:56Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > Just because losses on wars are so low don’t mean we don’t lose players to wars. You’re absolutely right. > CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. **That** , on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/744 "2018-10-05T11:43:35Z")
> **[EVEData: Where are players dying?](https://www.evedata.org/killmailStatistics)** > > View over time, the most common sources of distinct characters losing ships Wars amount to 10% roughly of killmails in high sec for 7 days old characters. This is actually about those who wanted to fight, not those who logged out and stopped playing. There are bigger numbers for older characters, I think older characters know how to defend themselves and have more ability to fight so are more willing. Or maybe just lose less ships to NPCs and other causes. I wonder what percent of those corporations had structures they were willing to defend, and what percentage had only bunch of characters doing things together. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/745 "2018-10-05T11:47:03Z")
What I meant with “losses” is ISK lost. This can’t be an counter argument to people are leaving because of wardec, because they are and ISKs losses won’t show it since they don’t undock. Most wardec losses are people caught at hubs or highways routes I presume, not the ones who fight back. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/746 "2018-10-05T12:02:55Z")
There are also easy ways to avoid War Decs, you’ve been in an NPC corp for 5 years, is it that bad? Actually, could you list the things a new player can’t do in the game being in an NPC corp. All I’m reading is their inability to play the game in an NPC corp, other than give taxes to the CEO of the player corp of course. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/747 "2018-10-05T12:19:56Z")
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9l16dv/ccplease\_release\_the\_data\_on\_war\_decs\_and\_player/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/9l16dv/ccplease_release_the_data_on_war_decs_and_player/) There are even war survivor stories. > It killed the game for the new folks. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/748 "2018-10-05T12:27:39Z")
No, the Wardec did not kill the game for them, the people giving them advice killed it. _That’s basically what happened to high-sec mining group I was in once. We were growing pretty steadily, bringing in mostly new players, **showing them the rope** s. Then we got wardecced by some griefers demanding ransom. Rather than fight – AKA feed – **my CEO ordered everyone to just sit in station**. For like a month. In the middle of summer. Because we sure as hell weren’t going to pay either._ Easily avoided by dropping to an NPC corp for a week, still being able to fully play the game, keeping in contact with players, doing the same activities together and group back up after the war is over. Not hard is it? ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/749 "2018-10-05T12:27:47Z")
Read some of them, nothing new, players been telling those for years. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/750 "2018-10-05T12:33:46Z")
🙄 because that is some fun gameplay for both parties involved… ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/751 "2018-10-05T12:34:50Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Easily avoided by dropping to an NPC corp for a week, still being able to fully play the game, keeping in contact with players, doing the same activities together and group back up after the war is over. Not hard is it? Probably the worst thing he could do to retain players from CCP point of view, but what he thought may be that these players will not come back to this corp anyway, finding luck somewhere else, so he though “well at least maybe few will stay after that mess will be over” ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/752 "2018-10-05T12:35:38Z")
What changes for the new player? Nothing. But lets be real here, this outrage has nothing to do with the ‘new player’. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/753 "2018-10-05T12:36:56Z")
What utter rubbish. The NPC corps are some of the most active, lively chats in the game, it is the perfect environment for a new player looking to stay in the game. Hows is your 1 man corp doing you are in? Must be fun! ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/754 "2018-10-05T12:37:23Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > nothing to do with the ‘new player’. I think it do. They are the most vulnerable kind because they dont know much. Depend on what is told to them. If game would suggest them options in text and tell that wardec avoiding wisdom, maybe it could work a little better, but still wars would be the most disrupting thing for new player in high sec. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/755 "2018-10-05T12:39:08Z")
Exactly the reason the shouldn’t be hopping into corps where CEO’s tell them not to play the game. Exactly the reason why they should be in active NPC corps to get good advice from other players wanting to help them. Again, this is not about new players, is it. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/756 "2018-10-05T12:39:19Z")
What outrage? CCP has mechanics that is leaking players, no matter new or experienced. It’s been reported for years. If I were in charge at CCP it would day and night thinking how to solve it. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/757 "2018-10-05T12:41:10Z")
It is common, if they stand and fight they will be decced again. It’s better to not respond to unwanted pvp that play the agresor game. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/758 "2018-10-05T12:41:18Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Problem with tying wars to structures is that it will always favor N+1 behavior. This will ensure that smaller groups always lose and then we’re right back where we started. > > If players don’t feel like they have something worth fighting over and that there’s a shot of winning, then you won’t see proportionate engagement in the system. If declaring a wardec would requires a unique structure, then all corps and alliances wardecced by that corp/alliance can attack that structure. If they destroy it, all that corp or alliances wardecs end upon destruction of the structure. This allows and motivates defenders to join together, or hire mercs, to eliminate a wardeccers wars on them. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/759 "2018-10-05T12:41:44Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Again, this is not about new players, is it. It is about everyone in a war at this point. But CCP should be aware its mostly about what they do with this. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/760 "2018-10-05T12:43:18Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > What changes for the new player? Nothing. But lets be real here, this outrage has nothing to do with the ‘new player’. Even if it doesn’t directly affect the new player, if its affecting the experienced players who are in much better positions to mentor and organise new players in the nuances of eve. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/761 "2018-10-05T12:45:54Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Exactly the reason why they should be in active NPC corps to get good advice from other players wanting to help them. > > Again, this is not about new players, is it. Wasn’t one of the tasks in the new player experience to ‘Join a Corporation’? How are new people really in a position to know what the ramifications are of just ‘doing what the tutorial asked’ ? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/762 "2018-10-05T12:46:43Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > Player enforcement for this is a very bad idea. If Wardecs are facilitated by a single structure located in HS, and all associated wardecs are ended by destruction of that structure, defenders to all wardecs issued by the owners of that structure are incentivized to join, mobilize and hire others to destroy it, to end the wars. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=37) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=39)