# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/763 "2018-10-05T12:47:02Z")
I repeat (taken from the Reddit thread) > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > That’s basically what happened to high-sec mining group I was in once. We were growing pretty steadily, bringing in mostly new players, **showing them the rope** s. Then we got wardecced by some griefers demanding ransom. Rather than fight – AKA feed – **my CEO ordered everyone to just sit in station**. For like a month. In the middle of summer. Because we sure as hell weren’t going to pay either. These are the people who are in a much better position to mentor people? Go back to an NPC corp and see how helpful it is there, some of the most helpful people in the game, doing it for the right reasons, not for their own gain. Oh wait, you know this, you have happily lived in an NPC corp for the last 2 and a half years. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/764 "2018-10-05T12:47:39Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > It is common, if they stand and fight they will be decced again. It’s better to not respond to unwanted pvp that play the agresor game. Exactly. Even if they stand and fight and win on the battlefield, it doesn’t mean the war will stop. If anything it means its a loss, since the defender is now doing what the attacker wanted them to do, i.e., fight a war, as opposed to doing what the defender wanted to be doing i.e., anything else… ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/765 "2018-10-05T12:48:45Z")
Just give me CEO of CONCORD and I’ll end Marmite wardecs. 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/766 "2018-10-05T12:53:21Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Oh wait, you know this, you have happily lived in an NPC corp for the last 2 and a half years. My first character is from 2013. I don’t play it anymore because I forgot the e-mail and password, because the corporation I was in was war declared and some douchebag lost an orca, making it permanent. We then got permanent declared and I quit playing. When I came back, I knew not to make the same mistake of joining a corporation. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > These are the people who are in a much better position to mentor people? NPC Corporation chat is as full of trolls as it is saints. A corporation is more likely to have a vested interest in actually helping you, since the return they get is in both ISK and manpower. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/767 "2018-10-05T12:54:23Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > There are already ways to play this game ignoring wars, so making so groups can do so isn’t going to kill Eve. Give them a wardec issuing structure which, as defender, they can destroy with others wardecced by that structure, and they will join together and hire others to engage it, to end the war on part of the defender. If the wardeccer wants to defend that structure or not, is up to them. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/768 "2018-10-05T12:59:48Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Give them a wardec issuing structure which, as defender, they can destroy with others wardecced by via that structure, and they will join together and hire others to engage it, to end the war on part of the defender. If the war declaration mechanic is to see change soon, the solution needs to require as little dev time as possible. Structure based mechanics will take awhile to implement and no doubt the structure team is already busy with the navigation structures that are due out. Structure based mechanics might be the way to go long term, but short term they will likely be gamed with time zone tanking, neutral logi or placement in high security space islands. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/769 "2018-10-05T13:02:29Z")
Rubbish. There are still plenty of communication tools in game to be part of a player corp, helping out, even though you hop out of that corp for a period of time. Stop with this fallacy that you can’t play the game unless you are in the same corp as them. But again, you are the perfect example of giving new players bad advice. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/770 "2018-10-05T13:03:26Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > If the war declaration mechanic is to see change soon, the solution needs to require as little dev time as possible. Structure based mechanics will take awhile to implement and no doubt the structure team is already busy with the navigation structures that are due out. This issue has existed for years. What matters, is it gets fixed, ASAP, in a sustainable way. Attach wardecs by Corps/Alliances to a destructible structure (can use the same graphic as an existing structure as holding graphic), so that defenders can join together, or hire others, to wreck it and thus end all of that Corp/Alliances wardecs towards everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/771 "2018-10-05T13:06:26Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > But lets be real here, this outrage has nothing to do with the ‘new player’. Ok, let’s be real: What _do_ you think this is about? Are you claiming that CCP Larrikin lied to the CSM about the data? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/772 "2018-10-05T13:07:24Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What _do_ you think this is about? Please. The “think of the children” meme is real. Dont try to reverse it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/773 "2018-10-05T13:08:37Z")
So tell us what you think it _is_ about then. Why did the data get brought up at all? The CSM didn’t ask for it, according to the minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/774 "2018-10-05T13:08:55Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Stop with this fallacy that you can’t play the game unless you are in the same corp as them. To some players its about ‘identity’ as much as it is anything else, giving up their identity is akin to surrendering the war. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > There are still plenty of communication tools in game to be part of a player corp, helping out, even though you hop out of that corp for a period of time. Then why are social corporations so threatening if people avoid the mechanic anyway? > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > But again, you are the perfect example of giving new players bad advice. We’re both saying to stay in a NPC Corporation under the present mechanic. Pot, meet Kettle. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/775 "2018-10-05T13:09:07Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Why did the data get brought up at all? We havent seen the data. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/776 "2018-10-05T13:09:29Z")
No, _we_ haven’t, but that’s not the question. What do you think this _is_ about? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/777 "2018-10-05T13:10:05Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What do you think this _is_ about? I think its about wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/778 "2018-10-05T13:10:40Z")
What _about_ the wardecs? CCP brought up the data they showed to the CSM. You say it’s not about the loss of players. Then _why_? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/779 "2018-10-05T13:11:09Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You say it’s not about the loss of players. lolwut? Where? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/780 "2018-10-05T13:11:59Z")
Oh, please. Decrying the concerns about retention as ‘think of the children’ nonsense isn’t trying to make out like it’s not about the loss of players? ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/781 "2018-10-05T13:13:15Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > going to kill Eve. > > Give them a wardec issuing structure which, as defender, they can destroy with others wardecced by that structure, and they will join together and hire others to engage it, to end the war on part of the defender. > > If the wardeccer wants to defend that structure or not, is up to them. This is unlikely to work. Most groups don’t want to engage at all so this won’t help them in the slightest. The activity numbers will still be atrocious as they will still opt to log off for a week. Second, giving players the ability to turn off the war for everyone else is a massive buff to the top dog. Sure, this would allow nullsec groups and the big mercenary groups the ability to end a war, but those aren’t the groups that need any help or are logging off for a week. Plus, I don’t think giving the apex highsec groups even more control over who can participate wars is one that is going to help increase use of the mechanic. Whatever fix is needed has to primarily focus on the groups that aren’t responding to wars, not leave them in the same status quo of just not playing for 7 days. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/782 "2018-10-05T13:13:27Z")
About eve players. CCP would like to have them playing the game, but player actions dont look like players are in agreement with this. It is CCP role to deliver system where players agree to PvP and see it as fun, to prepare them, educate everyone. To leave it to players to choose their way around the game. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=38) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=40)