# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/61 "2018-10-03T04:33:01Z")
The parts of the game that make this game EVE are the interactions with other players. Those are things CCP has very limited control over. The players have far more control there, and they’ve been shaping that part of the game in ways CCP hasn’t expected for 15 years. But most new players never get that far into the game. They never get there because they don’t stay long enough to get to the parts that are all about player interaction. And that’s something only CCP can address. And they need to. And that’s all about ‘bearing’, because that’s what new players are offered right off the bat. ---
**Author:** ![Rivr\_Luzade](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rivr_luzade/32/311061_2.png) [@Rivr\_Luzade](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rivr_Luzade)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/62 "2018-10-03T05:35:10Z")
> [@Cletus\_Graeme](#): > > If CCP add NEW missions which are _Corporation_ specific then this would justify > variation between agents. > What they shouldn’t do is just re-distribute the existing missions in an attempt to > make the offerings more diversified. That sounds like a good plan. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/63 "2018-10-03T05:39:01Z")
So everybody, CSM, CCP agrees on those things like wardecs and null ratting. So what? It goes on for years now. FOR YEARS! How long till they make some changes? YEARS! 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Cyber\_Fight\_r](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cyber_fight_r/32/167707_2.png) [@Cyber\_Fight\_r](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cyber_Fight_r)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/64 "2018-10-03T05:49:08Z")
Allways the same statment from you guys. Ofc you as a former public enemy ( a closed down high sec “merc” group) cant say differnt things as you guys are addicted to all that helpless ship shooting. In which “merc” group you ar now? The ratio ganking victims vs abusive war dec victims is 1 to 1000 You should look for some other “content”. ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Gorp](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/linus_gorp/32/317333_2.png) [@Linus\_Gorp](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Linus_Gorp)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 5:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/65 "2018-10-03T05:55:16Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > But the bottom line is the amount of ratting isk entering the game is unsustainable. It’s off the charts. In one region in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/66 "2018-10-03T06:08:36Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > So everybody, CSM, CCP agrees on those things like wardecs and null ratting. So what? It goes on for years now. FOR YEARS! How long till they make some changes? YEARS! 😂 Ok, so: let’s hear some ideas. How would you fix it? What do you think a functioning wardec system looks like? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/67 "2018-10-03T06:09:00Z")
No no, that’s not off the charts. That _is_ the chart. And the only reason other regions don’t look like that, too, is because those groups have consistently marginalized miners and industrialists in their ranks and given them no support. The numbers are too high, but don’t think for a moment that it wouldn’t be much, much worse if the rest of null wasn’t nursing the self-inflicted sucking chest wound of failing to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![zluq\_zabaa](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zluq_zabaa/32/19011_2.png) [@zluq\_zabaa](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/zluq_zabaa)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/68 "2018-10-03T06:20:44Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > > CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players of corporations that have wars declared against them and it shows considerable activity drops in all activities during the war. They also show that the low activity continues after the war ends. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing war decs as a mechanic and promising a fix after the fact. The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention. > > Even without watching that data some people knew how bad it is, they actually played thru it. 😂 > > Dont know what CCP was doing all those years… A few CSM summits later… “CCP Larrikin pulls up activity data for players who are not represented by a Null-bloc CSM and it shows considerable activity drops before, during and after the re-election of the the same Null-bloc CSM. Brisc Rubal noted that the numbers here were so stark, it would justify immediately removing everything but Sov Null and promise to never talk about it again.” Seriously though, there are different perspectives on war decs. In the end of the day, no one likes to eat dirt and when you aren’t prepared to be strong enough, that’s what you gonna do. No one cares about your reasons, time here, ressources there. Everybody expects you to eat that dirt. Of course there is a significant amount of people who are not willing to do that. And it doesn’t matter if it’s wardecs or territorial battles against an enemy one has no realistic chance of widthstanding. I think up to that point it’s clear for everyone who ever played the game and isn’t plain stupid. Wether that’s bad or that’s good - this is were the opinions go apart. But what’s actually shocking, is that CCP apparentely had no clue about what happens to players who _subjectively_ don’t feel challenged but stomped on. And now, instead of dealing with the different opinions on the matter of wardecs in a reasonable matter, it’s up to the Nullsec CSM to make crap proposals like getting rid of wardecs altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/69 "2018-10-03T06:22:15Z")
One with a massive and extensive area effect so they might have a phyrric victory m ( A guy can dream, right?) ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/70 "2018-10-03T06:25:07Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > > Potential upcoming changes include a AURA Voice Over > > Is there any way to get RealAURA back? The one that used to mock you when you died? or a choice of Aura attitudes. From all business to girl Friday to snarky b\*tch m ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/71 "2018-10-03T06:28:52Z")
Current system is functioning, but it is functioning with negative effects for every new guy potentially. I would make it so there would be two kinds of player corporations. One wardeccable with ability to build structures, and second that have npc tax and cant build structures. Sort of npc player run corp. New guys will have to be informed about kind of corporation they will end up too. For anomalies I proposed removal of bounties and replacing with tags that have to be trasported to high sec to sell in npc stations. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/72 "2018-10-03T06:29:32Z")
ad. Abyssal Deadspace, status and plans - any plans to balance the loot, especially books drops? Maybe tweaks materials used to manufacture? ad. War Declarations - for years people complaining about the system, thousands of players left because of that and all you got “we have data and we want to look at it”? If the numbers are so stark then it the number one issiue to solve. ad. Ship and Module balance Nullification - that where CSM weaken is fully shown, you just 10 people with different opinions, not players representatives. Why nobody even think about why nullification was added in the first place? Do we get module tiercide done? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Azariah](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mike_azariah/32/512626_2.png) [@Mike\_Azariah](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mike_Azariah)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/73 "2018-10-03T06:40:46Z")
Ask me that again if I am fool enough to run for CSM next year m ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/74 "2018-10-03T06:41:07Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > New guys will have to be informed about kind of corporation they will end up too. Sure, but since one of the big difficulties _now_ is getting new players out of NPC corps and into situations where they’re interacting with other players… _how_? Next, what does your proposal actually change? Player groups that want to do their own refining or mine a moon will still drop a relatively cheap structure for that purpose, and just stay docked up and drop a new one if they have to, when war-dec’d. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/75 "2018-10-03T06:43:04Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > Why nobody even think about why nullification was added in the first place? Pretty sure Fozzie was thinking about that, since he’s the guy who put it in. As for why the CSMs didn’t think about that… they know about it. That doesn’t mean they think that reason was any good. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/76 "2018-10-03T06:53:09Z")
Why it was added in the is the first problem we have with nullification today. Nobody want to admit that. They are counter to bubbles because bubbles without it have no counters. Without nullification 0.0. will be stale again as with times when anchored bubbles blinding people jumping into them. ad. Upwell Structures " Sort Dragon wants to note that this change as it stands right now would hurt 0.0. And would like that added to the minutes." what changes? cyno jammers? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 7:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/77 "2018-10-03T07:02:12Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > " Sort Dragon wants to note that this change as it stands right now would hurt 0.0. And would like that added to the minutes." The lack of counter-play to attacking the navigation structures. Right now, you can defend them by getting remote reps on the jammer/jb/cyno beacon even while you’re trying to fight the enemy fleet off. If nothing else, it buys you time, and the structure gets incapped. Almost nobody kills them outright because of the insane resists on structure, and because repairing them at half structure is more of a pain than replacing one that’s been killed. So if (as Upwell structures), you can’t repair them, then incapping a stargate or a cyno beacon means it’s not down ‘until fixed’, it’s down for . Imagine having a stargate go down for 3d, for example. It basically reduces the level of activity, and just moves people into a model of ‘fine, I’ll just jump my stuff around in a capital ship to the standing cyno fleet, because that’s right on a citadel, and if it dies, the pilot docks, gets another cyno ship, and re-lights’. That lack of counter-play is also why Sort pushes for a… well, the minutes call it a ‘damage cap’, but I’m pretty sure Sort meant a damage _threshold_ high enough to ensure these things can’t easily be killed by some guy with 5 ninja dreads… and a damage _cap_ low enough to ensure that a defense fleet has time to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 7:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/78 "2018-10-03T07:03:15Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Sure, but since one of the big difficulties _now_ is getting new players out of NPC corps and into situations where they’re interacting with other players… _how_ ? Well, people dont get out of npc corps and interact with other players because they will be wardecced, if they are not aware, one wardec is enough for them to be a part of that CCP statistics. Interacting without being wardecced - good thing. Interacting with being wardecced - bad thing. The corps with structures are more hardcore, play for longer and are more aware of the surroundings so they would know what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/79 "2018-10-03T07:04:22Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You missed the part where I asked Larrikin if bounties were sustainable and he said no. This is why I’m in favor of nerfing bounties. As for the rest, you clearly didn’t read anything past this and you’re still putting words in my mouth. I know we already exchanged ideas on how to make it happen. I just had the idea of adding a small respawn timer for the individual waves in the sites (prefered by Super Carrier?). 5 Seconds per spawn would ammount to 25-30 seconds per site. With an average of 4 minutes per site in a super, we are looking at an ~11% nerf while hurting the fastest ships the most. Maybe this could be a super dirty and super quick fix? It seems like an easy to do thing (as delayed spawns are already in the game) and it can be tweaked too. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2018, 7:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/80 "2018-10-03T07:06:22Z")
People also don’t get out of npc corps because right now… nothing feeds them _into_ player-run corps. There’s 30 days of a newbie help channel, but I’ve been in them, and they’re not exactly all that helpful sometimes. If you’re playing solo, there isn’t much _reason_ to ever leave your NPC corp. If you have some friends you already know and are planning to play with, and you can get them all to start characters in the same NPC corp? You’re good to go. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=5)