# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/783 "2018-10-05T13:13:57Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Attach wardecs by Corps/Alliances to a destructible structure (can use the same graphic as an existing structure as holding graphic), so that defenders can join together, or hire others, to wreck it and thus end all of that Corp/Alliances wardecs towards everyone. Why is 0.0 full of VNI ratters? Its low effort, path of least resistance with a good return. Got a war? Path of least resistance is to not log in, not only does it garuntee no ships lost, it also costs nothing. There are plenty of other games out there to play in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/784 "2018-10-05T13:14:04Z")
How does tying wardec declaration to a unique structure screw new players? The whole problem has been how to get people to stay and fight. Providing them with a structure they can destroy to end the war ALL wars based there, does exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/785 "2018-10-05T13:14:25Z")
What data? Let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/786 "2018-10-05T13:16:32Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The CSM didn’t ask for it, according to the minutes. Yes, in fact CCP asked for feelings about the war declaration mechanic before showing the data. Player growth affects all aspects of eve and it would be nice to think in 15 years time its not been the same people logging as when eve was launched in some sick online version of the 30 years war. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/787 "2018-10-05T13:17:07Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Yes, in fact CCP asked for feelings about the war declaration mechanic before showing the data. This. And CSM agreed this is top priority. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/788 "2018-10-05T13:17:47Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The whole problem has been how to get people to stay and fight. No, the whole problem is that _all_ activity drops when wardec’d and stay depressed after. The people who tend to get wardec’d aren’t the people who tend to fight back. That’s _why_ these groups target them: they don’t have a PvP history. They don’t have indicators that they’re going to fight back. If someone doesn’t want to PvP, providing them a structure is just saying ‘here’s a way to do the thing you don’t want to do’. Well… why would they want to do that? > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > What data? > > Let’s see it. This is a totally separate issue. Right now, absent the data, you’re saying people are wrong about ‘what it’s about’. So what do _you_ think it’s about, since the CSM minutes say it’s about retention? ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/789 "2018-10-05T13:18:24Z")
Um, I’m arguing for NPC corps being a good environment for new players to be in, you are arguing against, claiming that people cannot play the game unless they are in a player corp, while you sit your whole lifetime in an NPC corp. Yeah. Pot/Kettle ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/790 "2018-10-05T13:19:38Z")
Except, you know, for the part where they don’t want to play a war and will avoid it by the same means as now. There is no way in which you can force someone to play a game in a certain way. It’s just a game. They will either have it their way or will not play at all. The only “maybe if” is “maybe if CCP stopped driving players away with wardec mechanics”. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/791 "2018-10-05T13:20:33Z")
If all wardecs of a Corp/Alliance are facilitated through a unique structure, it means all Corps/Alliances wardecced by them just have to blow up that structure. It finally gives them an opportunity and incentive to mobilize, join together, and hire others to destroy that structure, to end ALL wars issued from it. Defenders finally have an option, except logging out. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/792 "2018-10-05T13:20:39Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Um, I’m arguing for NPC corps being a good environment for new players to be in NPC corps are a fine environment for new players to be in, up to a point. NPC corps don’t develop. They don’t let you explore your options around New Eden. They’re great _if_ you never want to have any feeling of ‘this is my group, and I know I can trust all the people here’. They’re also basically _begging_ to be awox’d by gankers. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/793 "2018-10-05T13:22:12Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > How does tying wardec declaration to a unique structure screw new players? Taking down a structure in high security space requires more than a few ventures and more ISK than what an Orca costs. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The whole problem has been how to get people to stay and fight. No, its than even if they do fight they’re doing something other than what they want to do, for what reward more than just not logging in? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/794 "2018-10-05T13:23:09Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If all wardecs of a Corp/Alliance are facilitated through a unique structure, it means all Corps/Alliances wardecced by them just have to blow up that structure. > > It finally gives them an opportunity and incentive to mobilize, join together, and hire others to destroy that structure, to end ALL wars issued from it. > > Defenders finally have an option, except logging out. Hiring others _might_ be an option… if there’s really a _good_ way to find those people to hire. But the mercs… tend to be the guys doing the wardecs. Same corps. But other than hiring other people… this is a voluntary activity. A game. They have other games they can play. If you don’t like skydiving, someone saying ‘but look! This company offers a discount, so it’s easier to do it!’ isn’t going make you decide ‘oh, well, now it’s _easier_ to do the thing I don’t want to do. I’m in!’ ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/795 "2018-10-05T13:24:03Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Taking down a structure in high security space requires more than a few ventures and more ISK than what an Orca costs. All Corp/Alliances wardecced by the Corp/Alliance structure, can join together, and hire others, to wreck it and win ALL the wars for the defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/796 "2018-10-05T13:26:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Hiring others _might_ be an option… Ofc is a real option then. Pay Mercs to destroy that structure. Or join with others wardecced by that structure as owned by declaring Corp/Alliance. Or do both. Point is you can can go and wreck that structure, to end ALL the wars issued from it, in favor of all defenders. The whole point is so people dont log out. This gives them a target to hit, instead of logging out. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/797 "2018-10-05T13:27:20Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > All Corp/Alliances wardecced by the Corp/Alliance structure, can join together, and hire others, to wreck it and win ALL the wars for the defenders. By the way: 1 structure for all your wars? So you only have to defend _one_ thing, with a reinforcement timer on it so you know _when_ you have to show up to defend? And you can toss just 1 of these up and have unlimited wars, all for the same price in structures? ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/798 "2018-10-05T13:27:57Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Um, I’m arguing for NPC corps being a good environment for new players to be in, you are arguing against, claiming that people cannot play the game unless they are in a player corp, while you sit your whole lifetime in an NPC corp. I have no attachment to my NPC Corporation members. If ‘No Corporation’ was an option I’d select that too. I don’t read corporation chat and I get no more or less benefit from being a member in this NPC corporation as any other. My gaming group that ‘used’ to play eve now plays World Of Tanks and nobody else really wants to deal with running a corporation for the group with the way things are. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/799 "2018-10-05T13:28:45Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The whole point is so people dont log out. > This gives them a target to hit, instead of logging out. So how do you get them to do the activity they don’t want to do? That’s the real sticking point here. ‘Oh, but this way they can fight back!’ How do you get them to fight back if **fighting** is what they _don’t want to do_, and what they’re logging off to avoid? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/800 "2018-10-05T13:28:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > 1 structure for all your wars? Yes. Only one. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/801 "2018-10-05T13:29:34Z")
Yeah, give me only _one_ thing to defend, and that one thing will be a total kill box for anyone trying to get to it, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/802 "2018-10-05T13:30:47Z")
After seeing these discussions I’m leaning more towards Brisc’s view of dropping decs all together. Those who want to fight will move to low, WH or null. Those who don’t want PvP will just wait it out or quit. This would be harsh on wardec players, but if it’s hurting player retention that much it should be considered. Something else needs to be worked out instead. Perhaps genuine piracy where criminal character have to use citadels rather than npc stations (they’re criminals after all). Something clearly needs to change drastically if retention numbers are that bad. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=39) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=41)