# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/803 "2018-10-05T13:30:53Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Yeah, give me only _one_ thing to defend, and that one thing will be a total kill box for anyone trying to get to it, thanks. Depends how may Corps/Alliances you wardec out of it. Suddenly hundreds of ships might show up tired of your crap to blow it up and end all your wardecs in favor of defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/804 "2018-10-05T13:35:16Z")
It is about targeting one specific form of gameplay, while all the other contributors to reducing player retention is ignored. Let’s see all the data. Not cherry picking specifics that affect older players more than new. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/805 "2018-10-05T13:37:29Z")
The whole point is to stop defenders leaving wardec, and the game. Giving them 1 structure to destroy per Corp/Alliance of wardeccers, does exactly that. Finally they can man up, join up, and hire others, to go and end the war in favor of ALL defenders, by destroying a single structure which may or not be sufficiently defended by the wardeccers. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/806 "2018-10-05T13:38:51Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If all wardecs of a Corp/Alliance are facilitated through a unique structure, it means all Corps/Alliances wardecced by them just have to blow up that structure. > > It finally gives them an opportunity and incentive to mobilize, join together, and hire others to destroy that structure, to end ALL wars issued from it. What then when a 100 person corporation war declares corporations with only 5? What reprieve is there in such a system for them? ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/807 "2018-10-05T13:40:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Hiring others _might_ be an option… if there’s really a _good_ way to find those people to hire. Hiring others is already an option, judging by the data, its either not used much or not very effective. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/808 "2018-10-05T13:42:49Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > What reprieve is there in such a system for them? A 5 man Corp vs a 100 man Corp will never have a reprieve. But it the 100man wardeccing corp has declared on hundreds or thousands of players in various Corp/Alliances, they can join together, or pool resources to hire mercs, to destroy the wardeccers structure, thus ending all wars out of it, in favor of all defenders, ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/809 "2018-10-05T13:43:43Z")
Interesting, your old group plays a combat game in WOT yet has no desire to engage in combat in EVE. Do they exit the game and sit in the lobby for a week when someone shoots them in WOT? ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/810 "2018-10-05T13:46:40Z")
Building on several ideas mentioned in here: Types of corporations Current npc based corp with all the same restrictions Tier 1 Social corp: corporate office, no corp structures,limit 30 members, non decable Tier 2 Corp, 1 corp structure per constellation, wardecable at a rate of: war declaration + damage deposit cost, may have up to 2x times “pickup/mercs” join war for the defnder for free, limit of 60 members in corp. Tier 3 Corp, unlimited structure restriction, wardecable at a rate of war declaration + damage deposit, may have up to equal " pickup/mercs" join for free, unlimited size. This builds on the idea of introducing small social corps with severe restrictions, partially addresses some structure spamming that has been going on, allows for less frequent/but more even (fun for all) wars. Broad ideas that would allow a graduated growth into a full capability corporation, allow for a corp to try to increase its capabilities as well as fallback if it becomes too much (still preserves the corp’s identity), and helps address some of the detrimental effect a handfull of corps are having on the retention rate in EVE. While I don`t think a complete solution to EVE’s player retention rate will be solved in the forums, I do think that some of the better idea presented in here might stimulate possible solutions that both CCP and the CSM might have overlooked. I do know that any solution that CCP decides on will have a loophole or 2 in it and that it won’t take long for some EVE group to find and exploit (remember insurance fraud?), but any significant improvement to player retention would help us all. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/811 "2018-10-05T13:48:51Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > But it the 100man wardeccing corp has declared on hundreds or thousands of players in various Corp/Alliances, they can join together, or pool resources to hire mercs, to destroy the wardeccers structure, thus ending all wars out of it, in favor of all defenders, Hundreds or Thousands? If you war declared goons, pl, test, brave, you’d be lucky to break 1,000 as null security organisations don’t need to go to empire for content and they’d laugh at the fools that wasted their ISK on such empty threats. Even adjusting the numbers down to a practical amount, for how long would the wars stop? A day? A week? What if there are a web of wars between these corporations preventing cooperation? All the attacker has to loose is one sodding structure that will probably cost less than a machariel. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/812 "2018-10-05T13:49:54Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Hundreds of Thousands? Read again. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/813 "2018-10-05T13:50:27Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Do they exit the game and sit in the lobby for a week when someone shoots them in WOT? No, they wait for the next round where all their stuff respawns. In case you haven’t noticed, EVE isn’t as generous. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/814 "2018-10-05T13:50:34Z")
A trifle too many… ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/815 "2018-10-05T13:52:40Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > All the attacker has to loose is one sodding structure that will probably cost less than a machariel. Cost of structure is one thing. Cost of wardecs, in number, per size of aggressor vs defender, are another. Rationally, it should be cheaper to wardec a larger corp/alliance, than to wardec a smaller corp/alliance. As to limits on wardecs limits per number, those are still on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/816 "2018-10-05T13:53:36Z")
So basically, it has nothing to do with wardecs, just they prefer casual lobby games, got it. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/817 "2018-10-05T14:01:43Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > So basically, it has nothing to do with wardecs, just they prefer casual lobby games, got it. That’s damn right. CCP either accepts people don’t see the value in the current meta and makes changes, or CCP ignores the data and continues catering to one dimensional gameplay while the player base stagnates and expires. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/818 "2018-10-05T14:04:43Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > That’s damn right. CCP either accepts people don’t see the value in the current meta and makes changes, or CCP ignores the data and continues catering to one dimensional gameplay while the player base stagnates and expires. This is an empty statement, and I read it 3 times. Its been said, repeatedly, that wardec defenders falling out of EVE is the problem. What do you have to say to that? ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/819 "2018-10-05T14:05:01Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Hiring others Whom do you hire to actually fight marmites or pirat ? ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/820 "2018-10-05T14:06:02Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > There are also easy ways to avoid War Decs Sure, there are, except if you own assets in space. But still too many people choose to quit rather than living in NPC corps forever or move out of highsec, create alt accounts, etc. … and yes, you have to stay in NPC if you want to operate also in highsec using only one char. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/821 "2018-10-05T14:11:30Z")
Look. Its not complicated. Defenders, be they who they are, with whatever assets, DIDNT WANT THE WAR. It is forced on them. Fine. Such is EVE. But the problem is they have no way to win it against multiple aggressors, or one large one, without just logging out, If all Cop/Alliance wardecs are linked to a structure, ALL defenders of wardecs from there can mobilize, join forces, and hire others, to take out that structure, to end the wars in favor of all defenders. What is the problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/822 "2018-10-05T14:16:01Z")
What you say if that those who don’t group and don’t fight do group and do fight, they will not have an issue… What about getting right the part with they DO NOT GROUP and they DO NOT FIGHT? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=40) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=42)