# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/843 "2018-10-05T15:39:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Those hundreds of ships could _already_ get together to kick my butt, and they don’t. Think about that. They don’t becuase many wardeccers don’t undock unless they have overwhelming force. What’s the point in forming a fleet if you’re targets just gonna dock? But there would be a point in forming a fleet to end the dec. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/844 "2018-10-05T15:40:02Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > It is about targeting one specific form of gameplay, while all the other contributors to reducing player retention is ignored. Let’s apply this train of thought to other situations, and see how effective it is as anything other than a recipe for doing nothing… Well, we haven’t been able to come up with a comprehensive cure for death, so I guess there’s no reason to look at how to prevent murders? I mean, if you want to complain about cherry-picking, _great_, but… you’re doing it, too. You’re singling out this _one bit_ of this _one meeting_ to rail against. Meanwhile, CCP’s trying to fix player retention issues stemming from PvE activity (Agency events are a part of this effort), sov warfare problems (Continuing to look at issues with tethering, AoE damage, server performance), the New Player Experience (continuing to iterate on the new version), Faction Warfare, and so on. Just because they’re addressing problems individually, rather than trying to find a magic bullet, doesn’t mean they’re not looking at those other problems, too. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/845 "2018-10-05T15:41:29Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Hiring others is already an option, judging by the data, its either not used much or not very effective. Or, you know, they don’t know it’s an option. Look, one of the continuous, frequent complaints _already_ is that CCP’s terrible at getting information to the players in-game. ‘Hey, you could hire us to protect your butt’ isn’t exactly popping up on the advertising billboards in stations, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/846 "2018-10-05T15:44:35Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > People like Arrendis aren’t talking about a nullsec alliance at all. The people who will fight back are already fighting back. They’re not the issue. It’s like saying ‘look, fat people exist, clearly hunger isn’t a problem’. The fat people aren’t the people who’re starving. You don’t build famine relief efforts for _Iowa_. That doesn’t mean you don’t need to address the problem where it _does_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/847 "2018-10-05T15:46:18Z")
Nullsec alliances currently do not engage hisec war deckers as there is no benefit as they dock up, that is about to change, hopefully. Your trolling is pretty terrible even by your standards, you seem a bit uptight over this. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/848 "2018-10-05T15:46:46Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > so blobs of titans now a more valid gameplay option. Actually, that was done to reduce server lag that causes disconnects. Adding _another_ check of ‘IsCapital Y/N?’ just makes _more_ server lag. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/849 "2018-10-05T15:48:09Z")
We’re fighting back, even dominating the dec at times, but we’re still forced to be on high alert for as long as the aggressors want. This is exhausting. Cant fight. Cant go back to casual play. Guess I’ll just hold my dick until the aggressor says it’s ok not to…or i drop corp. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/850 "2018-10-05T15:50:32Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Can’t see any benefit in that to end a war dec… Stop trolling! > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > They want the war over. > They want it to end. > They didnt initiate it in the first place. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > They don’t becuase many wardeccers don’t undock unless they have overwhelming force. What’s the point in forming a fleet if you’re targets just gonna dock? But there would be a point in forming a fleet to end the dec. They could be forming up to defend themselves now. That would end the wars, because the wardeccers would be spending money to not get kills. More, if they were to band together to give ‘overwhelming force’ and make the wardeccers dock up… _they could then go ahead and go back to their PvE_. When the wardeccers undock, they clump up again. This isn’t brain surgery. They could be doing this now. They’re not doing this now. They will not do this to go and engage in the second most boring gameplay in EVE after setting up a new PI farm. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/851 "2018-10-05T15:51:23Z")
Misrepresentation of what I said. I said there was no reason to come kick your butt because that will not end a war dec. If kicking your butt enabled me to end a war dec then it will be kicked. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/852 "2018-10-05T15:53:54Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > to reduce server lag So maybe better if people stop bringing blobs because they will be dispatched in different way, like infecting one cap ship from another with grey goo eating hulls. Would cause massive titan necrosis in longer amount of time, not instantly, not noticable effect on lag, but noticable on player beavior and cap survivability. “Grey goo” bomb. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/853 "2018-10-05T15:56:35Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That would end the wars, because the wardeccers would be spending money to not get kills. More, if they were to band together to give ‘overwhelming force’ and make the wardeccers dock up… _they could then go ahead and go back to their PvE_ . When the wardeccers undock, they clump up again. This doesn’t end the war. It becomes a long stalemate until the aggressor says enoughs enough. I was dominating a defensive war. Still lasted over a month. Still had to watch local when i missioned or mined and that’s not what hi-sec players want to do for a month. Couldn’t use larger haulers or travel afk. Normal activities for casual players are not safe during a dec (i believe that’s the point). But right now the dec doesn’t end until your aggressors release you. No matter how much you’re dominating the war, you must be vigilant during the war. And thats exhausting for casual small groups. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/854 "2018-10-05T16:00:47Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Nullsec alliances currently do not engage hisec war deckers as there is no benefit as they dock up, that is about to change, hopefully. Nullsec alliances currently do not engage hisec war deccers because we don’t give a damn. Why would we? Because they might catch one or two of our idiots who aren’t smart enough to use an independent freight service or neutral alt? **Good**. Catch the idiots. Kill them. Let us point and laugh at our morons. They deserve it, and we’ll appreciate the entertainment of giving them a hard time for being stupid. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > We’re fighting back, even dominating the dec at times, but we’re still forced to be on high alert for as long as the aggressors want. This is exhausting. That’s not gonna change over a structure. Structures don’t just die. They get reinforced, and CCP’s expressed position is that there will be at least 1 weekend between initial attack and final RF, in almost all situations. So you RF their structure. Then what? You wait for the timer to come out, just like we have to. And while you’re waiting, the war’s still active, and they’re still suppressing your activity. Then it comes out… at a time of _their_ choice. So you get to alarm-clock for a timer. How does your corp feel about getting up at 3am to hit a structure? Do you think you can get more guys to show up than they can, if both sides know when and where the fight is? One side’s getting paid. The other side could, as you point out, just drop corp and not have to deal with this 3am crap. You tell me, how do you think that plays out? And… how _expensive_ is this structure? Is it more expensive than an Astrahus? If not, hey, the rates these war dec groups charge… 3-4 wars at any given time pays for it. If it survives a week, it’s paid for itself twice over. It’s still profitable for them to do this. If it’s more expensive than an a-hus, say 2b… what’s it _doing_ while it’s not under attack that makes it worth that much? Just holding down wardecs? Can you dock in it? Is it a citadel? Does it have guns and services? Can you have more than one of these things up at a time, forcing all of your enemies to hunt _all_ of them, even the ones you went and stuck in a wormhole someplace? Or stuck at the far end of hi-sec, just to make it _more_ of a pain in the butt for your targets to go kill it? I’m not saying things are fine now… but ‘slap a structure on it’ won’t fix the problem. Announcing a ‘fix’ that _doesn’t fix anything_ just makes people more demoralized and unhappy. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/855 "2018-10-05T16:03:14Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > So maybe better if people stop bringing blobs Sure, but that runs into a fundamental problem: human nature. People don’t like to lose. One of the easiest things to use if you have it is overwhelming numbers. Its like that old Ron White line: ‘I didn’t know how many of them it’d take to kick my butt… but I knew how many they were gonna _use_…’ It’s really great to say ‘don’t blob’, but that’s just never going to happen. It’s not. ‘Bring more friends’ is part and parcel of sandbox conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/856 "2018-10-05T16:05:01Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Nullsec alliances currently do not engage hisec war deccers because we don’t give a damn. Why would we? Because they might catch one or two of our idiots who aren’t smart enough to use an independent freight service or neutral alt? > > **Good**. Catch the idiots. Kill them. Let us point and laugh at our morons. They deserve it, and we’ll appreciate the entertainment of giving them a hard time for being stupid. Some people want to shoot the war deckers, just today one of the chaps went and played with PIRAT because he could, more would do it if they could get a fight out of it. Are you telling me that these blood thirsty Aussies that I play with would not get ultra excited at the chance of blowing up bling fitted expensive ships of entities that were foolish enough to go to war with us. Do you PvP at all? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/857 "2018-10-05T16:05:48Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Do you PvP at all? Ask Fawlty7. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/858 "2018-10-05T16:06:08Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Ask Fawlty7. I could but I am asking you. I detailed why people in my alliance do PvP, and you said ask Fawlty7 when the reasons for doing it were in my post. Strategic objectives get fights, you should know that as a Goon, or do you? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/859 "2018-10-05T16:08:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Sure, but that runs into a fundamental problem: human nature. Humans can be steered into doing many things. Human nature is to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/860 "2018-10-05T16:09:39Z")
Well, the answer is yes. I PVP’d when I was in a highsec mining corp that got wardec’d and turned the tables on the guys coming after us. I PVP’d when I was in j-space scrapping over hole control against AHARM and R&K both. Since coming to null, I’ve engaged in PvP at every scale from losing solo frigates and gate camping to running fleets in the largest fights online gaming has ever seen. And I said to ask Fawlty because if you ask Fawlty7 whether or not Goonswarm’s top logistics anchor PvPs, he might well laugh his ass off at you or tell half-remembered stories of Arsehole Squad. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/861 "2018-10-05T16:11:05Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Humans can be steered into doing many things. Not when they have options to do other things they enjoy more, for less effort. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/862 "2018-10-05T16:12:05Z")
If bringing blobs would mean more effort and less fun, then why do it? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=42) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=44)