# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 44
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/863 "2018-10-05T16:12:59Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > If bringing blobs would mean more effort and less fun, then why do it? To _win_. The fun is in the winning, for quite a lot of people. Those people are already fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/864 "2018-10-05T16:13:46Z")
As I said I was asking you, because you were indicating to me that a meaningful strategic objective that would get a fight would not interest nullsec players who would be able to shoot bling fitted expensive ships on people they don’t actually like and if they won the objective cause them to lose a lot of ISK. It is a no brainer. A lot of nullsec people look for stuff to do at times, in groups, that would be another group to develop and have fun with. You have groups, you have Miniluv for a start. A group developed to do hisec war decs to cull mercs would be fun and interesting especially for those that were blown up and laughed at, there another reason the butterfly affect. I don’t care what you did, I only care what you are going to do or not? Rest on your laurels if you want, does not bother me. One issue is that CCP might look at nullsec coming in and doing hisec stuff but that is happening anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/865 "2018-10-05T16:13:54Z")
But they would not win but get more effort and less fun. So why then bring it? To lose? ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/866 "2018-10-05T16:16:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So you RF their structure. Then what? You wait for the timer to come out, just like we have to. And while you’re waiting, the war’s still active, and they’re still suppressing your activity. Then it comes out… at a time of _their_ choice One week, two weeks. Still less than a month. If the dec expires in less time than the structure takes to die, cool. Or if the aggressors surrender to save the structure, cool. But if not, i can force a fight or victory. Very cool. > [@Arrendis](#): > > So you get to alarm-clock for a timer. How does your corp feel about getting up at 3am to hit a structure? Do you think you can get more guys to show up than they can, if both sides know when and where the fight is? One side’s getting paid. The other side could, as you point out, just drop corp and not have to deal with this 3am crap. So we have a choice? Better than what we have now. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And… how _expensive_ is this structure? Is it more expensive than an Astrahus? If not, hey, the rates these war dec groups charge… 3-4 wars at any given time pays for it. If it survives a week, it’s paid for itself twice over. It’s still profitable for them to do this. I don’t want wars to be unprofitable. Or even expensive. I’d want the structure to be affordable by small groups. My proposal doesn’t even involve destroying the structure. Just disabling it. No kill mails or reward necessary. Just ending the dec via effort with my corp intact. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Or stuck at the far end of hi-sec, just to make it _more_ of a pain in the butt for your targets to go kill it? Which is the same for the owners. Put it close to targets for easy defence. Or the arse hole of no where and have to travel back and forth between defences and targets. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not saying things are fine now… but ‘slap a structure on it’ won’t fix the problem. Announcing a ‘fix’ that _doesn’t fix anything_ just makes people more demoralized and unhappy. This doesn’t make sense. Perhaps cause you just think i want decs to be harder to do. My problems with decs are fixed by a structure. No more guerrilla wardecs. Deccers have to use their decs and undock. I don’t have to stare at local for a month. Added bonus, anyone who like to drop corp for a dec is completely unaffected by structures decs. Everything they did before, they can still do. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/867 "2018-10-05T16:21:17Z")
And that is exactly why I asked to see ALL the data before people make rash, uninformed judgements like this. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its been said, repeatedly, that wardec defenders falling out of EVE is the problem. Meanwhile, in other threads > [@Gankers in highsec still there?](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/gankers-in-highsec-still-there/110706): > > There where alots of stupid noobs around in highsec two years ago bumping and killing freighters with 50 Caracals. I canceld my subscription back then and now after two years I consider again to pay for some Eve Online. Is it worth checking back in again or should I carry my money somewhere else? Addressing problems individually is fine, but when all you are doing is shifting the problems into other areas (as stated by WDers already in this thread as they prepare to move to ganking) solves nothing. Let us see all the data and try and move forward with it. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/868 "2018-10-05T16:21:41Z")
I think CCP goes bad way thinking blobs and massive battles are good. It generates tidi and people are unhappy because sooner or later all what they do will be of no efect because server node will die. CCP should work towards scaling engagements to lower amount of people. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/869 "2018-10-05T16:23:44Z")
Seeing as you mentioned gankers I checked a sample of people who had been scammed bumped, this is tricked into doing a duel, I found that 80% of them had quit the game. I started to look at all the ones that had been bump scammed by a particular bumper who detailed them in a thread and was running at a 50% quit rate before I stopped due to my posts detailing this getting deleted and the threads closed. You really do not want to go there mate. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/870 "2018-10-05T16:24:04Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > As I said I was asking you, because you were indicating to me that a meaningful strategic objective that would get a fight would not interest nullsec players who would be able to shoot bling fitted expensive ships on people they don’t actually like and if they won the objective cause them to lose a lot of ISK. It is a no brainer. I was indicating to you that a structure shoot is boring-ass gameplay that nobody wants to bother with. We do it when we do it because it needs to get done. Usually, if it’s not something _really_ close by, we don’t bother. And we’re not going to bother in high-sec, as a general rule, either, because high-sec is just asking for trouble. High-sec is a world most nullsec pilots don’t understand at all anymore. I’m not just talking about wardec mechanics, either. I’m talking about guys who’ve been conquering space all over New Eden for a dozen years or more going into Amarr… and getting their entire logistics wing killed because **1** dude wasn’t involved in the wardec, and the criminal timer propagated through the cap chain and got every single Basilisk CONCORDed. Miniluv, to use your example, suicide ganks. They don’t need to care about a lot of the mechanics in question, because they don’t intend to _not_ blow up _every time they fire_. As for starting a group to do hisec war decs… why bother? If we wanted to give a crap about mercs in hisec, we’d give a crap about mercs in highsec. You want a group to do hisec war decs to cull mercs? **Make one**. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/871 "2018-10-05T16:26:11Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > But they would not win but get more effort and less fun. So why then bring it? To lose? Who is ‘they’ in this situation? One side in any conflict is going to not win. That’s why a ‘fair fight’ in EVE usually means someone screwed up. That’s also why N+1 **is** such a common tool: to avoid being that side that isn’t going to win. If they don’t think they’re going to win, going into the fight… … they usually _don’t go into the fight_. Helldunk or blueballs is more or less the order of business in null. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/872 "2018-10-05T16:27:36Z")
Eh, only among the risk averse coward factions. There’s some entities out there that is still in it for the fights, but I’ll grant you they’re growing rarer and rarer, as the rest of you grow even more cowardly every day. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/873 "2018-10-05T16:28:05Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > One week, two weeks. Still less than a month. Unless they put another one down. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > So we have a choice? Better than what we have now. Already got that choice. You pointed it out yourself: you can drop corp. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > My problems with decs are fixed by a structure. You’re not the guy who doesn’t come back to the game after a wardec, either. And that’s the problem CCP’s looking to fix. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/874 "2018-10-05T16:28:06Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > My problems with decs are fixed by a structure. Here is the issue, you and others see the issue as fixed through this but then again your still playing so your not the players suffering from the problem. I’m not sure why null alliances keep being brought up either, the issue is player retention & recruitment. This means primarily **new players** who log off at the sight of a war dec not the bunch of bloodthirsty people you guys seem to have for blowing up merc structures. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/875 "2018-10-05T16:29:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > … they usually _don’t go into the fight_ . Helldunk or blueballs is more or less the order of business in null. Having fights that are unpredictable would be a more interesting thing. That could be made by means of equalling chances, that means handicapping blobs and those with bigger numbers. There should be wapon at ready that would cause this. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/876 "2018-10-05T16:30:33Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Addressing problems individually is fine, but when all you are doing is shifting the problems into other areas (as stated by WDers already in this thread as they prepare to move to ganking) solves nothing. > > Let us see all the data and try and move forward with it. See, now that’s something different than yelling about them ignoring other contributors. And that, for the record, would require a comprehensive look at everything, big-picture level, from CCP… which I’d completely support and don’t thin they’ve really done in half a decade at least. ---
**Author:** ![nomadd79](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nomadd79/32/318737_2.png) [@nomadd79](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/nomadd79)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/877 "2018-10-05T16:32:23Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s not gonna change over a structure. Structures don’t just die. They get reinforced, and CCP’s expressed position is that there will be at least 1 weekend between initial attack and final RF, in almost all situations. In wormhole space you can kill a LP structure in 18-36 hours with a lucky roll on timers. No reason these should be harder to kill than that. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/878 "2018-10-05T16:33:38Z")
That is a LOGIC thing for humans to develop weapons that take the strong point of opponent and use it against opponent itself. 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/879 "2018-10-05T16:34:03Z")
Use whatever insults you like, it doesn’t change the fact that victory, not ‘omg, that was an intense brawl’ is the goal of the null blocs (large or small) when they go to war. Fights can be had at any time, just for the price of grabbing some caracals and going on a roam. Wars… sustained campaigns of aggression intended to cripple or destroy an enemy… those are about winning and losing. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/880 "2018-10-05T16:38:30Z")
I have seen Miniluv defend Citadels in hisec… I gave reasons why to bother above refute them directly please, not just call it boring ass gameplay. People having lost ships to these people want to blow them up, especially if they got laughed at by people like you 😛 And if this change happens I for one will be starting a group either in my existing alliance or I will do something in hisec. The RR issues need to be sorted in some way, but part of the issue is that you brought that on yourself by not making sure that you had a tight group and had covered this issue. You tried to fight it with just nullsec attitudes and it blew up on you. Just because you made that error does not mean everyone else will. You do know about the safety don’t you, just because you are the Goons does not mean you should ignore it in hisec… That being said I have asked that CCP enable people in the same alliance to rep each other no issue, not the corp only. Furthermore I asked that anyone opposed to the aggressor in a war dec can rep each other too. To facilitate people grouping up. CCP need to look at this as one way to facilitate this change in attitude. Why are you so negative about giving people a reason to go after war deckers to end the war, what is bothering you about it. Are you worried about people being able to just do their own thing a bit more in hisec? NB I am uncertain whether the ability to rep other people in different corps in the same alliance is possible now, I think it is. If someone could confirm this to me I would appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/881 "2018-10-05T16:45:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Unless they put another one down. If you _can_ put another one down. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Already got that choice. You pointed it out yourself: you can drop corp. No i don’t have the same choices now as i would if they were structure decced. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You’re not the guy who doesn’t come back to the game after a wardec, either. And that’s the problem CCP’s looking to fix. Then i think I’m joining in with someone elses argument. The data isn’t telling you the full story. It’s not showing you that one of the reason activities plummet may be because corp leaders are telling people not to play during a dec. Or how many players joined a corp (cause it is an ‘opportunity’) without understanding what they are getting into. We’re also ignoring how many players are leaving without even being wardecced. How many players are quitting because eve is complex? Or lack of engagement? If the inspiration behind the attention on wardecs is player retention, then look at player retention as a whole. I don’t feel like wardecs are going to be the real issue. I think many quit regardless of wardecs. We’ll probably see that new players are falling into hands of ‘unhealthy’ players. Not being taught how the game works and not being engaged. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/882 "2018-10-05T16:50:48Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Here is the issue, you and others see the issue as fixed through this but then again your still playing so your not the players suffering from the problem. We don’t agree what the problem is. Player activity plummets because: A- they don’t like decs. Or pvp B- they can’t do anything to the attackers even if they wanted to, so why bother. C- they are told to by their ‘experienced’ leader. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=43) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=45)