# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/883 "2018-10-05T16:54:35Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > We’ll probably see that new players are falling into hands of ‘unhealthy’ players. Not being taught how the game works and not being engaged This over and over. Doesn’t help alot of experienced players are leaving or getting lazy (myself included) so they wont setup fleets or create content. Let’s not forget, Eve Online was brought out in an era where people were happy to invest a lot of time into RPGs, most of the guys I know load up Eve and close it again to go play PUBG. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > We don’t agree what the problem is. > > Player activity plummets because: > > A- they don’t like decs. Or pvp > B- they can’t do anything to the attackers even if they wanted to, so why bother. > C- they are told to by their ‘experienced’ leader. I said this a few hundred posts back that CCP need to outline a criteria before we can even think about a fix. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/884 "2018-10-05T17:07:34Z")
I don’t think B and C are mutually exclusive. Well B leads to C, I should try to be less flippant. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/885 "2018-10-05T17:13:36Z")
The wardecs of old WE’RE the engaging content back then. Or casually ganking. Or ninja salvaging someones mission. Messing with people was what the game was about. What are you going to do in hi-sec now? Fleet up for an abyss? When wardecs, ganking and such were nerfed, many people i knew went into faction warfare. But now that’s fading out too. We aren’t replacing old content creators with new. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/886 "2018-10-05T17:14:16Z")
Well true. I was thinking from a line member. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/887 "2018-10-05T17:23:06Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The wardecs of old WE’RE the engaging content back then. Or casually ganking. Or ninja salvaging someones mission. Messing with people was what the game was about. > > What are you going to do in hi-sec now? Fleet up for an abyss? > > When wardecs, ganking and such were nerfed, many people i knew went into faction warfare. But now that’s fading out too. Absolutely, I used to spend countless hours adding people, locating them, gathering intel, watching online times and activity hunting. I still tried to do this when I could be bothered until recently when CCP nerfed the chat window work around to check if a player was online. Now there is zero incentive to hunt as the hours required are enormous and your basically hunting ghosts. Just to clarify something i’ve seen afew times in this thread, as someone who used to put wars in when in VMG none of my targets were focused at people who couldn’t fight back or what i’d deem easy targets. It was literally pot luck that if you flew past me or was in local (even more so if you was chatting rubbish) and you had a sizeable corporation I would add you to the list. Sometimes we were actually surprised as groups i’ve never even heard of would show up in force and have a good fight… very far and few between nowadays though. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/888 "2018-10-05T17:23:08Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I gave reasons why to bother above refute them directly please, not just call it boring ass gameplay The fact that it’s boring _is_ a refutation of your ‘people are looking for things to do all the time’ ideas. Yes, people are looking for things to do all the time. If nullsec pilots want to attack structures, there are closer structures that don’t make them put up with the high-sec nonsense. But for most of those people, structure shoots aren’t things they get to do, they’re things they _have_ to do. And when they’re given the choice, they won’t do 'em. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > If you _can_ put another one down. Which you’ll be able to. Let’s face it, CCP isn’t going to make these ‘you can only have one’, because they’ll hear too much complaining. I’m not saying that’s fair, or it’s right, but that’s how it’ll play out. > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > The data isn’t telling you the full story. It’s not showing you that one of the reason activities plummet may be because corp leaders are telling people not to play during a dec. Or how many players joined a corp (cause it is an ‘opportunity’) without understanding what they are getting into. Quite possibly. But from what the minutes show, the common factor seems to be the wardecs, not the other potential factors. Obviously, you and I don’t have the raw data Larrikin used. We’re not gonna get it, either. And that data can’t show what instructions or education a CEO gave his people outside of the game UI. It’s just not a factor we can quantify without a _really_ extensive study lasting over a year (to filter for seasonal ebb and flow). As a result, we’re left with: ‘here are the conclusions that were drawn. They show X problem. How do we solve that problem? **Can** we solve that problem, without causing more problems?’ I’m not sure that we can, but just settling on ‘pin a structure to it’… doesn’t solve that problem. So what other options are there? > [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > We’re also ignoring how many players are leaving without even being wardecced. How many players are quitting because eve is complex? Or lack of engagement? A number between 0 and infinity that compromise a different problem. Not saying that problem shouldn’t be looked at, but right now, we’re on this one. vOv ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/889 "2018-10-05T17:23:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > They’re not doing this now. They aren’t doing it now, because they have no way to end the war unless the declarer surrenders. If they have a structure they can destroy, that ends ALL wardecs originating from it, they can mobilize, join together, and hire mercs, to take it out to end the nuisance. This has been explained to you already a half dozen times. The problem is wardec defenders are logging out, and then not returning, because they have no tangible way to stop the war they didnt want, that was declared on them. If they can end it by destroying a structure, that is a good thing, especially if that same structure and its owners have vested several, dozens, or hundreds of wardecs through it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/890 "2018-10-05T17:26:32Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > They aren’t doing it now, because they have no way to end the war unless the declarer surrenders. And as many times, I’ve pointed out that they don’t have to make the war ‘end’. They just have to make the aggressor decide to go find an easier target. Wardec groups will bypass groups that put up resistance. The war may exist on paper, but it won’t exist in space. Meanwhile, the structure only provides them a ‘here, we know you don’t like this gameplay, but do what you don’t like so you can get out of it, ok?’ And… they don’t have to do what they don’t like. That’s why they’re logging out. They can just go do _something else_ they like better. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/891 "2018-10-05T17:28:02Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The war may exist on paper, but it won’t exist in space. Why are you so afraid of wardecs being hinged on a wardec specific structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it? Surely its a simple matter to defend it, unless youve made so many wardecs and pissed off so many, including otherwise PvP averse players/groups, that they gang up and hit you for it? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/892 "2018-10-05T17:29:56Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Why are you so afraid of wardecs being hinged on a wardec specific structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it? I’m not. What do I have to be afraid of about that? I just don’t think it’ll _work_, and as I’ve said, a fix that doesn’t fix anything just makes the problem _worse_ because people get on the ‘CCP doesn’t know what they’re doing’ train. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > especially if that same structure and its owners have vested several, dozens, or hundreds of wardecs through it. Then you’re looking at a bunch of people who don’t like to fight, and probably don’t have a lot of experience in PvP, going up against an organized group that _does_ have that experience, probably has reasonably well-theorycrafted doctrines for structure defense, _and_ has neutral logistics assets the targets of the dec can’t touch. Getting slaughtered on a timer isn’t gonna give them the warm fuzzy feeling, you know? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Surely its a simple matter to defend it, unless youve made so many wardecs and pissed off so many, including otherwise PvP averse players/groups, that they gang up and hit you for it? You seem to be laboring under the impression that I’m on the side of the highsec wardeccers. Here’s what I do in/around EVE: 1)I fly logistics in fleets for the Imperium, in nullsec. 2)I anchor logistics in fleets for the Imperium, in nullsec. 3)I run RepSwarm, a sub-org that teaches logistics pilots and anchors in the Imperium (in nullsec). 4)I run the Goonswarm Fitting Team, designing fleet doctrines (and I still take full responsibility for the hurricanes, Miz) for the Imperium, used primarily in nullsec. 5)I mine. In nullsec. 6)I do reactions and industry. In nullsec. 7)I’m an editor at Imperium.news, the Imperium’s news outlet, running gaming news mostly about EVE… mostly about nullsec. 8)I also do some missioning on 2 alts in highsec, but they’re mostly just training skills up so they’ll be useful when I move them out to nullsec. Which part of that screams ‘I am a highsec war deccer who has any reason to fear this change’ to you? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/893 "2018-10-05T17:32:13Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > a fix that doesn’t fix anything It does fix the situation, though. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Getting slaughtered on a timer isn’t gonna give them the warm fuzzy feeling, you know? Gives them a chance atleast. Instead of no/dropping feelings when logging off, not playong and not returning, cos they cant end the war by any means except attrition. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/894 "2018-10-05T17:32:15Z")
If observatory arrays are able to track players and reinvigorate the hunt, then we may see how structures interact as part of a war. Wardeccers will likely use these structures to facilitate their wardecs. And defenders may bash them to become difficult to find again. It might give an incite into the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/895 "2018-10-05T17:34:30Z")
Oh for sure, I’m not singling out any particular playstyle here, that was just the most recent and quickest post I could find relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/896 "2018-10-05T17:35:00Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The fact that it’s boring _is_ a refutation of your ‘people are looking for things to do all the time’ ideas. What is boring, them actually defending it is not boring, I have shot enough strategic objectives in this game and can have a laugh doing that with my alliance mates, ask Fawlty7. And when they defend, fun fun fun… > [@Arrendis](#): > > Yes, people are looking for things to do all the time. If nullsec pilots want to attack structures, there are closer structures that don’t make them put up with the high-sec nonsense. So you are lazy and don’t care, not my impression of Goons by the way, I think the most can do people in the game. My experience is that most nullsec players would love to give something back at hisec war deckers. And even if it only happens every so often I think in the initial period a fair few will. And tha will have an impact, show the way. > [@Arrendis](#): > > But for most of those people, structure shoots aren’t things they get to do, they’re things they _have_ to do. And when they’re given the choice, they won’t do 'em. You are assuming everyone is like that, hell I have enjoyed shooting stuff in the past where it costs an enemy who has annoyed me. It is joy and a good feeling and if they don’t war dec us, great. The structure will die, if they can cost the war decker multiple war dec fees then they have got at them, again players go to many lengths to get at their enemies. And if they get a fight out of it with bling fitted mercs then even better. You have groups that do specific stuff, you have the players that have experienced hisec war decs, you would find it easy to do, and it is for others a new experience. Stop being so negative, I have to ask again what scares you in this? I am wondering if hisec becoming better will impact your recruitment numbers or that you lose people to a more relaxed game play. Though how you manage that in the Goons is pretty good. I expect a fair few of the more PvP orientated players will want to go dip their toes in this as another experience. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/897 "2018-10-05T17:39:24Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It does fix the situation, though. I really don’t think it will. I don’t think it addresses the fundamental problem here: people who don’t want to PvP won’t PvP. Telling them ‘but now it’s easier’ doesn’t change that: they don’t want to PvP. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > What is boring, them actually defending it is not boring Shooting a structure is boring. Shooting an enemy fleet is not boring. Shooting an enemy fleet in High-sec is asking for one idiot whose alliance isn’t currently involved in the war to get CONCORDed, broadcast for reps, and get the entire logi wing CONCORDed along with him. We roll up with 500 Feroxes, they’re not fielding a fleet. We roll up with a force that isn’t 100% guaranteed to take out the strategic objective when we _could_ have brought one that **is** … is just wasting the time of our line members. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > So you are lazy and don’t care, not my impression of Goons by the way, I think the most can do people in the game. Are you, in RL, right now at this very moment, working on a vehicle for manned interstellar spaceflight, or are you lazy? We have other things to do. Cleaning up the messes in high-sec isn’t our job, and it isn’t our problem. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > I expect a fair few of the more PvP orientated players will want to go dip their toes in this as another experience. Great! I hope they enjoy it. Everyone should work hard to find their bliss. And I don’t mean the murder machine who runs Init, @Brisc_Rubal. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/898 "2018-10-05T17:44:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I don’t think it addresses the fundamental problem here: people who don’t want to PvP won’t PvP. That is a twisting of the fundamental problem, and not correct. The problem, as stated by CCP as reported in data to CSM, is people logging off, and never returning due to wardecs. You have this all backwards. The way to keep them from logging off, and leaving, is to hive them an opportunity to end the wardecs. They can do that, together, with others and mercs, if all corp/alliance wardecs are through one structure, which if destroyed, ends ALL wardecs issued through it. Instead of having to run in fear, they can organize and hit that structure, together, to end ALL wars issued from it. Instead of being “defenders”, they have a target they can destroy to end all the wars. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/899 "2018-10-05T17:45:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Shooting a structure is boring. Shooting an enemy fleet is not boring. Shooting an enemy fleet in High-sec is asking for one idiot whose alliance isn’t currently involved in the war to get CONCORDed, broadcast for reps, and get the entire logi wing CONCORDed along with him. So you have given up after one reverse. Hmmmmm. > [@Arrendis](#): > > We roll up with 500 Feroxes, they’re not fielding a fleet. We roll up with a force that isn’t 100% guaranteed to take out the strategic objective when we _could_ have brought one that **is** … is just wasting the time of our line members. Part of this is baiting an engagement, anyway it is down to what you do, or decide not to do. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Are you, in RL, right now at this very moment, working on a vehicle for manned interstellar spaceflight, or are you lazy? There is no reason to justify to me what you are doing in real life, but that sounds very interesting indeed. > [@Arrendis](#): > > We have other things to do. Cleaning up the messes in high-sec isn’t our job, and it isn’t our problem. You have groups that do things to keep people interested and able to PvP. This is another opportunity for experience. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Great! I hope they enjoy it. Everyone should work hard to find their bliss. And I don’t mean the murder machine who runs Init, @Brisc_Rubal. So why post so strongly against it. You obviously believe that 100% of people in hisec will not fight, that is crazy talk. I am hoping that enough people stand up and start changing attitudes, isn’t that what the Goon’s did? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/900 "2018-10-05T17:51:38Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > So you have given up after one reverse. Hmmmmm. You assume this has only happened once? Good job. No. I’m looking at a consistent stream of behavior, both in fleets specifically intended for highsec, and fleets that were just going through 1-2 systems on their way to somewhere else. The average line Goon is slightly more of a drooling idiot than a brain-damaged St. Bernard with overactive salivary glands[1]. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > There is no reason to justify to me what you are doing in real life, but that sounds very interesting indeed. :facepalm: I’m not doing that in RL, either. My point was only that yes, we _could_ be doing that, but we’re doing _other_ things. Having other priorities doesn’t make us ‘lazy’, as you accused. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > So why post so strongly against it. Because I don’t think it’ll work. I think it will be a waste of time on the devs’ part, a waste of time and emotional investment on the part of the people who get their hopes up, and it’ll take a good 12-18 months before anyone’s willing to admit that it didn’t do a damned thing, and now not only do you have to _still find a solution_, you have to figure out if the structures should be removed. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > You obviously believe that 100% of people in hisec will not fight No, I believe the people who already refuse to fight will continue to refuse to fight. The people who already _want_ to fight already _find ways to fight_. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > I am hoping that enough people stand up and start changing attitudes, isn’t that what the Goon’s did? About what? Mostly we got mad at people and decided to be jerks at them. * * * 1. And I promise you, the average line Goon feels that way about pretty much every other ‘average line Goon’, too. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/901 "2018-10-05T17:58:48Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You assume this has only happened once? Good job. No. I’m looking at a consistent stream of behavior, both in fleets specifically intended for highsec, and fleets that were just going through 1-2 systems on their way to somewhere else. The average line Goon is slightly more of a drooling idiot than a brain-damaged St. Bernard with overactive salivary glands. So you used the wrong tools for the job. And making the same mistake multiple times…, you need to get a good nice tight fleet, not blob it and hope for the best. > [@Arrendis](#): > > ![:facepalm:](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/2X/5/5cef807c35b9ea0163a2a5659715a7ac34f447f0.jpg?v=6) I’m not doing that in RL, either. My point was only that yes, we _could_ be doing that, but we’re doing _other_ things. Having other priorities doesn’t make us ‘lazy’, as you accused. So why raise it as if you were doing it then? So many excuses not to attack structures, people are lazy, its boring, it is a strategic objective that brings an end to a constraint in their play, of course they will go for it, it stops them from being totally bored station spinning… > [@Arrendis](#): > > Because I don’t think it’ll work. I think it will be a waste of time on the devs’ part, a waste of time and emotional investment on the part of the people who get their hopes up, and it’ll take a good 12-18 months before anyone’s willing to admit that it didn’t do a damned thing, and now not only do you have to _still find a solution_ , you have to figure out if the structures should be removed. You think that it will not work, I think it will work, so you just give up and end war decs then completely? > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, I believe the people who already refuse to fight will continue to refuse to fight. The people who already _want_ to fight already _find ways to fight_ . The people who wanted to fight found no effective way to fight, now they have a strategic objective worth fighting for. > [@Arrendis](#): > > About what? Mostly we got mad at people and decided to be jerks at them. A good reason to fight in your own words, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/902 "2018-10-05T18:05:29Z")
The details are still in the air, but: Place wardec specifc structure. Issue wardecs, via it. They log out, or do they? Maybe instead they mobilize, join up, hire mercs and come wreck your wardec structure, thus ending all wars issued via it, as defender. How does his NOT enable defenders to win wars, not leave EVE temporarily for the wardecs duration, then dropping out, as indicated by CCP stats and CSM concern? Give them a way to fight back and win. Thats what this is all about. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=44) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=46)