# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/903 "2018-10-05T18:15:19Z")
Because they won’t fight back, because that’ll require fighting. Doesn’t matter if it’s for a way to end the war or for whatever else. They’re not interested in fighting, and that is why they’re logging off. The reason they _stay_ logged off after the war is over is another matter entirely and has to do with the highsec gameplay being boring as ■■■■ and the spell gets broken when they’re forced out of the addiction for a week or two. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/904 "2018-10-05T18:15:59Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > So why raise it as if you were doing it then? You accused us of being lazy for not doing a thing. I was illustrating the point that there’s a lot of things _you_ aren’t doing right now that you could be. It’s not because of laziness, it’s because you have **other** things you’re doing. Do you not understand that? > [@Dracvlad](#): > > You think that it will not work, I think it will work, so you just give up and end war decs then completely? Did I say that we should remove wardecs completely? I think if you’ll look, I’ve said I don’t know what the solution is. I don’t think _this_ will work, though, and I think that putting time and effort into making it happen will backfire. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Give them a way to fight back and win. Thats what this is all about. The people who will use this ‘way to fight back’ already have a way to fight back called ‘fighting back’. Yes, it’s something you have to keep doing. Yes, you have to keep alert and paranoid and watching your back. Yes, it’s _exhausting_. Welcome to war in EVE Online. It’s all of those things, all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/905 "2018-10-05T18:21:06Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > They’re not interested in fighting, and that is why they’re logging off. ■■■■■■■■. They are logging off because the are overwhelmed with no way to win the war they never wanted., and leaving EVE. If there is a specific ingame way to end all wars from that source, as a structure, they can join together to wreck it and hire mercs alongside. You arent understanding this. Its not just one corp anymore, its ALL Corps/Allieances that are tired of the wardecs, and can end them ALL, by wrecking the structure they originate from. What are you afraid of? Dont want to defend that structure against angry pro-active defenders taking the fight to you, together, to end ALL your wars by blowing up that wardec structure? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/906 "2018-10-05T18:25:37Z")
You have no idea who you’re talking to, do you? I have been wanting people to go for my structures since I bloody anchored the damn things. You don’t seem to get it: No one is ‘afraid’ of anything. We’re just telling you why your “fix” won’t work. You’re ascribing these highsec bears with capabilities and motivations they demonstrably have never had. We’ve seen this for a decade and a half now. Even when they can be perfectly safe with even the slightest of adjustments to their playstyle or social structure, they still won’t do it because _they’re not interested in fighting, period._ Fighting against an organized PvP organization on a predetermined grid, at a pre-determined timer of _their_ choosing? Yeah no, highsec bears aren’t interested in fighting as is, and you think they’re interested in throwing themselves into a giant meatgrinder? ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/907 "2018-10-05T18:26:46Z")
Because adding a structure only as a solution just entertains the deccers, not the corps they dec. As Arrendis said, those that want to fight,do. The rest of the corps who are decced, whether for easy undock trade hub targeting or lulz, want to go back doing what they came to EVE to do in the first place: Mission.Mine,Explore,etc. They may join up with a few friends or a slighter larger number over a wider time zone frame, but they never will be able to equal the coordinated manpower of the deccing corp. Even if you manage to get them to dip their toes in PvP via the structure, getting them coordinated together in a large enough group doing an activity they don’t like doing and attacking those that want to and have made a living fighting would be near impossible. So you feed their ships into the structure meat grinder, they lose (and badly ,too), and still remain under the threat of the war continuing or having another war declared even if somehow they win. Sure, the deccers are entertained doing something they enjoy. The other side is forced to do an activity they hate and pay RL money to do that, exactly the same problem we are having with the current HS wardec system. No wonder we can’t retain as many newer players as we need. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/908 "2018-10-05T18:30:21Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > You have no idea who you’re talking to, do you? No idea. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > have been wanting people to go for my structures since I bloody anchored the damn things. You havent placed a structure via which wardecs are issued, and the destruction upon they are all ended in favor of defender. Why? Because they dont exist yet. I and others are proposing they should, to give defenders a reason/target to not log off (as is the stated problem for wardec targets) and instead mobilize, join with other wardecced defenders and hire mercs to wreck your wardec structure to end all your issued aggressive wardecs. Does that make you afraid? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/909 "2018-10-05T18:31:22Z")
And now read the _rest_ of the post. You can do it, I believe in you. Sound out the words. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/910 "2018-10-05T18:33:29Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > now read the _rest_ of the post. Read mine. Its not hard to understand. Link wardecs to a dedicated wardec structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it as won by the defenders. If they can wreck your wardec structure, they win the war. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/911 "2018-10-05T18:36:52Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Link wardecs to a dedicated wardec structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it as won by the defenders. Out of curiousity… what happens when the defenders _lose_ that fight? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/912 "2018-10-05T18:37:20Z")
Already told you why this won’t work. Ad nauseum. Bears aren’t interested in fighting in the first place, and linking the end of the dec to a giant meatgrinder grid _they_ can determine, at a time _they_ can determine and be prepared for with a monstrous defensive doctrine is most certainly not going to fix that. You keep asking if people are afraid of this. Are you kidding? We’d _love_ for this to work, if we had even the slightest belief it _could_ work. Getting a fight out of these bears? It’d be perfect! I’d buy two dozen at a time and gleefully await its destruction. … but it won’t, because as we’ve told you repeatedly: If they’re not fighting now, they sure as hell won’t when they have to do so against an organized, prepared PvP organization who knows when and where you’re comin’. And as Arrendis up there pointed out, what exactly do you think it’ll do for retention when the bears lose a bunch of ships and _fail_? That’ll be great for retention, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/913 "2018-10-05T18:38:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Out of curiousity… what happens when the defenders _lose_ that fight? What fight? You still dont get it. This is not about winning or losing a fight. Its about winning/losing/ending the war. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/914 "2018-10-05T18:38:37Z")
And they’d have to _win the fight_ to do so. Think the wardeccers won’t defend their structure? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/915 "2018-10-05T18:38:55Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Does that make you afraid? I’m confused as why anyone who opposes the **CONCEPT** (because thats all it is) of linking wars to structures is so far “Afraid” “Negative” “Change of attitude”. Its a bloody opinion, we **DISAGREE** with what your saying and we are listing our reasons why. At this point you may as well just copy and paste your replies to each other as its the same post everytime. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What fight? > > You still dont get it. > > This is not about winning or losing a fight. > Its about winning/losing/ending the war. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/916 "2018-10-05T18:41:01Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Think the wardeccers won’t defend their structure? That’s up to them. If the’yve wardecced too many Corps/Alliances, too often, they may suddenly find dozens/hundreds/thousands of angry defenders showing up to wreck the structure and and ending ALL the wars issued through it, as defender victory for then all. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/917 "2018-10-05T18:43:19Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If the’yve wardecced too many Corps/Alliances, too often, they may suddenly find dozens/hundreds/thousands of angry defenders showing up to wreck the structure and and ending ALL the wars issued through it, as defender victory for then all. And while you guys do that, were roll into our new corporation with wars already setup for the next couple of week and make sure the reinforcement timer comes out on the day/day before the bills are due for renewal. Just to add : And anyone who actively wants to hunt us we won’t dec, meaning they will have to drop a structure and keep returning to high sec to defend it. I can see the fun engaging content already. Comon, you don’t think were make this easy right? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/918 "2018-10-05T18:43:36Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What fight? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If they can wreck your wardec structure, they win the war. Well, to wreck the structure, the defenders (the guys who got wardec’d) have to show up, right? And they have to attack it. That fight. Look: This will be a structure dropped by people with extensive PvP experience. This will be a structure with a reinforcement timer set by the people with extensive PvP experience. That timer will be set to the middle of a window where those people can reliably show up. So you shoot this thing the first time. You put it into RF. When it comes out, you have to attack it again, and this time _they know you’re coming_. So they’re going to be there, and they’re going to be ready, and if you brought a bunch of friends to RF their structure the first time… what stops the wardec group from hiring mercs, _too_? After all, they probably _are_ mercs. They know the guys who’re out there to hire. They know how to contact them. They know this better than the targets of the wardec do. So let’s say you get 5-10 10 man corps to band together into a 100-man fleet and go after PIRAT’s (for example) structure. And when you get there, PIRAT decloaks 40 stealth bombers and torpedoes you to death. **Now what?** Because I _promise_ you, PIRAT knows how to build (for example): [Hound, Range] Signal Amplifier II Signal Amplifier II Co-Processor II Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Covert Ops Cloaking Device II [Empty High slot] Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II and shoot at your little fleet of PvErs from 150+km away. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/919 "2018-10-05T18:46:38Z")
CCP, wat do? Lets pray for a moment of brilliance for devs. 😔 🙏 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/920 "2018-10-05T18:58:15Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > And while you guys do that, were roll into our new corporation with wars already setup for the next couple of week and make sure the reinforcement timer comes out on the day/day before the bills are due for renewal. Thats fine. Start a new structure at your cost, after previous is destroyed or redacted, and re-issue all wardecs at your cost. Note: This change would be best issued with variable costs for wardec depending on omegas in initiating Corp/Alliance vs defending Corp/Alliance, so its cheaper to punch up, that punch down. The wardec structure itself would also require upgrades to issue more wardecs, at cost to their owner. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/921 "2018-10-05T19:00:17Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Start a new structure at your cost, after previous is destroyed or redacted, and re-issue all wardecs at your cost. And pass those costs on to the people who pay you to wardec people, so the guys doing the wardecs never really have any increase in operating expenses and don’t give a damn how much they cost. Also: still haven’t answered the $64,000 question: What happens when the targets _lose_ the fight over the structure? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/922 "2018-10-05T19:02:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And pass those costs on to the people who pay you to wardec people, so the guys doing the wardecs never really have any increase in operating expenses You only need, and can have, one structure, per Corp. Upgrading it to enable more wardecs is up to you. How many Omegas you have vs the Corp you target, is also up to you. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=45) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=47)