# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/923 "2018-10-05T19:05:01Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > What happens when the targets _lose_ the fight over the structure? Nothing happens. If they fail to destroy it, the wars continue, as enabled by the structure. This was clear in my previous response if you think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/924 "2018-10-05T19:07:16Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You only need, and can have, one structure, per Corp. So what? Let’s say I have 1 structure. Let’s say that structure costs 900 million, and upgrading it to run 10 wars costs 100 million. That structure, because of the length of the timer, will live at least a week. Ok. So my operating costs for the wars now including another 1b per 10 wars, per week. So I increase my prices by 150 million a week for a war dec. I am now making more money than I was before. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/925 "2018-10-05T19:08:17Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Let’s say that structure costs 900 million It would cost nowhere near that, so as to still enable 1man corps to initiate wardecs. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/926 "2018-10-05T19:08:53Z")
It’s an example to make the math easy. 😛 > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nothing happens. > > If they fail to destroy it, the wars continue, as enabled by the structure. > This was clear in my previous response if you think about it. Right. Nothing happens. So now the PvErs, who _didn’t want to fight_ have lost ships, are _still wardec’d_, and have been shown ‘fight back and you’ll lose. You cannot win this’. Does that help retention or harm it? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/927 "2018-10-05T19:09:53Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Thats fine. > > Start a new structure at your cost, and re-issue all wardecs at your cost. > > Note: This change would be best issued with variable costs for wardec depending on omegas in initiating Corp/Alliance vs defending Corp/Alliance, so its cheaper to punch up, that punch down. > > The wardec structure itself would also require upgrades to issue more wardecs, at cost to their owner. I see, seems this simple fix is getting more complicated. Lets be real the structure wouldn’t cost alot (probably same price as a POCO) and considering the war payments work on a weekly basis they will probably be ending/ended before the final reinforcement timer. So were not actually losing anything other then structure costs. It would just be a massive inconvenience for all parties involved as your show up for a timer, to a corporation will zero members and only a structure to shoot at. Were even be nice and sit next to it to taunt you. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/928 "2018-10-05T19:09:55Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > It’s an example to make the math easy It was a ■■■■ example, and ridiculous, per the reason I stated. Use your own brain for a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/929 "2018-10-05T19:11:47Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > So were not actually losing anything other then structure costs. You lose all wardecs when the structure is destroyed, as victory to all defenders whether or not the participated in its destruction. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/930 "2018-10-05T19:12:17Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It was a ■■■■ example, and ridiculous, per the reason I stated. How about you use yours. It doesn’t matter _what_ the actual #s are, no matter how much the structure costs, the war dec groups will simply figure out ‘we normally run X wars. X wars cost Y ISK’. Then they’ll just increase their rates by some amount greater than Y/X ISK, so that no matter how many of these things get blown up, they’re never losing money on the deal. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You lose all wardecs when the structure is destroyed **They don’t care. They only care about getting paid. They will just put the wardec back up with a new structure and bill the client.** ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/931 "2018-10-05T19:14:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > hen they’ll just increase their rates by some amount greater than Y/X ISK, so that no matter how many of these things get blown up, they’re never losing money on the deal. You overlooked the part where the wardec structure has to be upgraded for additional wardecs, and where the cost of wardec is related to how many Omegas in that Corp, vs the target Corp. It will still be cheap for small corps to wardec a few others, especially if they are big ones, but it will be very expensive for large corps to wardec many smaller corps, both in upgrades to a vulnerable wardec structure, and in wardec declaration cost. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/932 "2018-10-05T19:15:59Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > where the cost of wardec is related to how many Omegas in that Corp, vs the target Corp. A)Not gonna happen. B)No, I haven’t. They’ll just assume a standard target size that’s larger than most highsec corps (150 members, FOR EXAMPLE), and base their rates on that. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/933 "2018-10-05T19:16:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Not gonna happen. Says you. You are just one pleb. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/934 "2018-10-05T19:17:27Z")
Seriously. You act like any of these things are not normal, existing considerations all across all kinds of service industries. Operating costs and scaling costs are _known behaviors_. This is how this ■■■■ works, every day, in every developed country of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/935 "2018-10-05T19:20:23Z")
Its a valid option to fix the issue of players dropping out at alarming rates due to wardecs, as stated a priority by CCP and CSM. Many have supported this for years, including CSM to some extent. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/936 "2018-10-05T19:22:19Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Its a valid option to fix the issue of players dropping out at alarming rates due to wardecs, as stated a priority by CCP and CSM. It’s a self-defeating proposal that will not fix _anything_. I really wish it wasn’t. I wish it was something that would work. Something amazingly simple like ‘slap a structure on it’ would be _wonderful_ if it worked. But it won’t. And you can repeat your platitudes about ‘ending the war’ and how it’s supposed to make it harder for wardec corps all you like, but it’s just gonna serve as a tar baby, and it won’t cost the wardec corps a _dime_. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/937 "2018-10-05T19:23:48Z")
Okay, I think we’re done here. He refuses to answer nine out of ten questions or criticisms with his plan, and on top of that doesn’t seem to understand how fleet fights actually work, how structure timers work, how bears and PvPers demonstrably work, and what the actual end-goal of all this is supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/938 "2018-10-05T19:24:03Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > will not fix _anything_ It will fix it very well, as explained earlier, and supported by community members and some CSM members. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/939 "2018-10-05T19:27:29Z")
One thought: Where is the structure going to be deployed? Whichever system it is in will just be gatecamped. If it’s the home system of the defenders, then that will equally be gate camped. The end result will be the same. I’m not against a structure being required, but only if it adresses the problem. I’m not sure it does. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/940 "2018-10-05T19:29:26Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > One thought: Where is the structure going to be deployed? Proximity and location is an issue. But CCP and CSM can figure that out. The point is that wardecs are issued through a destructible structure, thus giving defenders a means to end wars by destroying it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/941 "2018-10-05T19:34:15Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It will fix it very well, as explained earlier, and supported by community members and some CSM members. A) You are in denial and have no idea how these things will actually play out. B) Being supported by community members doesn’t make it a good idea. Entosis Interceptors were supported by some community members, too. C) **One** CSM _suggested_ the idea during a brainstorming session. Another had a vague ‘tie it to structures’ suggestion. Don’t try to make this out like there’s some vast concurrence of Great Minds on this. Tell you what: This weekend, I’ll even see about hauling Brisc and Jin’taan into a chat, laying out how I think all this plays out, and getting you a record of what the guy who suggested the idea says in response. I’d offer to get more of them involved, but I think Sort’s irked at me for Open Comms the other week, and you really don’t want a record Aryth responding to literally everything by telling people how he planned everything out all along, since the first day he ignited the goddamned sun. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/942 "2018-10-05T19:37:06Z")
You clearly are not aware of the discussion on the wardec issue. A structure basis for declaring a wardec, is well established in discourse, and supported. Giving defenders a way to end wars, by destroying that structure, is not a bad thing. Especially inlight of the serious problem of players leaving due to them, as indicated by CCP to CSM in the minutes of this thread. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=46) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=48)