# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/943 "2018-10-05T19:38:22Z")
I get this, and see the attraction of the idea, but it would need to be a straight ehp grind I think. One that can’t be repaired so it can equslly be nibbled away in hit and run strikes, or flat out hammered with a large fleet. This doesn’t get around the problem of location and travel. I proposed earlier that gates and stations still ought to shoot people aggressing since it looks bad for the Empires, but CONCORD would be ‘otherwise occupied’. Don’t battles have a points rating system? Perhaps something around that could be used as a point to end a war. If combat is getting out of hand then CONCORD would have to step in as there’s no longer plausible deniability. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/944 "2018-10-05T19:45:37Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > but it would need to be a straight ehp grind I think Ideally, it would not be. Its important to keep down the cost of the wardec structure, and its ehp and vuln windows, to make it possible for 1 man Corps to defend against 1 man corps, It would ideally be cheap, and weak in ehp, and easy windows. Either defend it it, as a wardec issuer, or lose it when the defenders come knocking to kick it over. I think some of you still arent getting, that only the wardec issuer needs such a structure. The defender does not. If the defender can wreck your wardec structure, you lose, as aggressor, both the structure and all wars sourced from it. The defenders then win the wars. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/945 "2018-10-05T20:16:24Z")
Why someone think war structure is bad? If defenders will show up and attack - great, this is meaningful highsec war you looking for. If not - you still can farm them one by one for cheap kills and tears. Clear win-win situation. ---
**Author:** ![Zar\_Myx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zar_myx/32/75333_2.png) [@Zar\_Myx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zar_Myx)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/946 "2018-10-05T20:19:46Z")
This mythical structure that will make people undock is just nonsense. Most (if not all) people in favor of this are hisec wardeccers hoping they can figure out how to get easy targets to undock. It is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/947 "2018-10-05T20:20:45Z")
It depends on where the structure is, and how things work. All I would do as a wardec corp is gatecamp every entrance to the system, and the structure itself. Then I’d keep alts on the pipes and Jita the same as always. Yay, more easy kills. On top of that if numbers remotely became a threat the groups would just merge even further. Good luck fighting them off. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/948 "2018-10-05T20:23:17Z")
If large deccers group piss of enough players they can coop and hire some heavy lifters. Anyway, it will mean more conflict and more fighting instead of just not undocking and just logging off. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/949 "2018-10-05T20:24:17Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > groups would just merge even further Highsec people are like cats, its really hard to herd them. But maybe under the strain of war some corporations would group up, those that have structures they use and that could be wardecced (not the social corporations tho, because these are clearly kind carebears and simple miners using only npc stations). ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/950 "2018-10-05T20:25:32Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > On top of that if numbers remotely became a threat the groups would just merge even further. Good luck fighting them off. Then you become an interesting target for other larger groups, yay more easy kills, see I can say that too! ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/951 "2018-10-05T20:25:36Z")
> [@Hlamon](#): > > Why someone think war structure is bad? If defenders will show up and attack - great, this is meaningful highsec war you looking for. If not - you still can farm them one by one for cheap kills and tears. Clear win-win situation. This. If you get warred, mobilize, join others warred by them, hire mercs, and go wreck their wardec structure. If they show up to defend, then its a fight. That is good. If they dont. defender acted and did not go AFK. That is good. Win/win. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/952 "2018-10-05T20:28:57Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > On top of that if numbers remotely became a threat the groups would just merge even further. Good luck fighting them off. More players you have in group - more content you need to feed them, more wars need to be declared. This will balance itself naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/953 "2018-10-05T20:30:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > You accused us of being lazy for not doing a thing. I was illustrating the point that there’s a lot of things _you_ aren’t doing right now that you could be. It’s not because of laziness, it’s because you have **other** things you’re doing. Do you not understand that? I understand that you are deflecting, which is trying to make a point away from the subject matter. Also to trey to be smart, I hear so many times from war deckers that it is boring to attack structures and anything larger than a small POS, seriously they need to HTFU. It is laziness. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Did I say that we should remove wardecs completely? That is perhaps on the table, as per the statement by a member of the CSM when they saw the figures. And I knew this was happening as I saw it happening. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I think if you’ll look, I’ve said I don’t know what the solution is. I can agree with that statement totally, you don’t know what the solution is that is evident. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I don’t think _this_ will work, though, and I think that putting time and effort into making it happen will backfire. And I disagree, I think it will work because while you have been swanning around in Goons for years and have no idea of hisec, I have been in hisec for a good part of that time and seen it develop to how it is now. You have no idea about this subject and it shows, you believe your own propaganda for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/954 "2018-10-05T20:31:06Z")
> [@Zar\_Myx](#): > > This mythical structure that will make people undock is just nonsense. Most (if not all) people in favor of this are hisec wardeccers hoping they can figure out how to get easy targets to undock. It is pointless. Check my corps wardec history. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/955 "2018-10-05T20:31:10Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > those that have structures they use and that could be wardecced If wardecs are linked to a specific structure, it makes it reasonable to hire mercs to take it out. The cost of Mercs eill vary depending on many things, but its a huge boost for Mercs in both profit and content, as the wardeccer WILL show up to fight back at the structure, and also try to take out the Merc Corps wardec structure, to end their war against them as issued by contract. There is no way this solution cannot increase content, and more directed PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/956 "2018-10-05T20:34:30Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Highsec people are like cats, its really hard to herd them I meant the wardec groups merging further, makes it easier to cover the pipes and whatever structure that needs defending across all TZs. ---
**Author:** ![Zar\_Myx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zar_myx/32/75333_2.png) [@Zar\_Myx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zar_Myx)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/957 "2018-10-05T20:35:58Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Check my corps wardec history. I guess I could, not sure what that means in a game where everyone has 5 alt accounts ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/958 "2018-10-05T20:38:44Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > All I would do as a wardec corp is gatecamp every entrance to the system, and the structure itself. If you’ve wardecced 100 Corps/Alliances, and they can end that nuisance by destroying one structure, they will be kicking down your door, no matter what you have gatecamping entrances to the system. Remember, this is HS. No bubbles or smartbombs at gates. Any and all members elsewhere will arrive piecemeal, detract from defence on the wardec steucture, and be stomped instantly on entry once the angry defenders have steamrolled down the pipe. This is good HS PvP. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/959 "2018-10-05T20:41:06Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > If wardecs are linked to a specific structure, it makes it reasonable to hire mercs to take it out. > > The cost of Mercs eill vary depending on many things, but its a huge boost for Mercs in both profit and content, as the wardeccer WILL show up to fight back at the structure, and also try to take out the Merc Corps wardec structure, to end their war against them as issued by contract. > > There is no way this solution cannot increase content, and more directed PvP. This isn’t going to happen. The people that are logging off are not the ones that are going to fight back. I do think there is room for some discussion on how to make actual wars more interesting, and that may involved structures or some other ‘skin in the game’, but they will do nothing for the perma-stay-docked highseccers that are not playing the game when wardecced. Any solution to solve the problem raised in those CSM minutes has to target the player group that will not undock or play the game when under a war if you expect to see any measurable difference in the war activity metrics. Those are ostensibly the ones being chased out of the game, not the ones willing to fight. Let’s start with a solution that deals with the “worst case scenario” of a small casual corp unwilling or unable to fight any war, and then we can discuss ways to make wars between the competitive corps more interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/960 "2018-10-05T20:44:02Z")
Pedro, we cant fix people that wont PvP, no matter what. That is a foregone situation. But we can give opportunity for those that might, if they have a way to end to wardecs, such as destroying one structure, especially if that structure owner has wardecced many corps. Those can mobilize, join with others and hire mercs, to kick in the door and wreck the structure that is enabling wardecs on them all. This is not a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/961 "2018-10-05T20:54:16Z")
You are genuinely a moron. You think a disorganized rabble of hisec bears are going to ‘steamroll’ experienced and organized PvPers on a structure timer they are: a) The ones setting up in the first place, dictating both location and timezone. b) Will be prepared to defend. c) Will invest in defensive doctrines for. d) Will be able to cheese like hell (neutral logi, etc. All the same old things you always see from them) Etc etc. If you want to improve player retention, this really isn’t the way to do it. As someone with a lot of experience here, most of these people won’t undock for _any_ fights, for any potential reward/war-end. The ones that do are going to be really lackluster in combat ability, experience, doctrine wrangling, organization and so on and so forth. At absolute best, you’ll get a small fraction of each wardecced corporation showing up in some awful mishmash kitchensink that’ll get stomped and cheesed to bits by the actually decent PvPers who will know exactly how to counter these things. As for mercenaries, again, actual mercenary here. Do you have any idea what it’d cost to hire a decent set of mercenaries to go up against a decent set of PvPers on a structure grid? It’s three ops, over at least a week. This will require payment for a sizable number of people, their deployment and staging, full SRP, etc etc. There was a saying a little while back, as far as mercenary work goes: “We don’t even undock for less than 5b.” That’s just to push the undock button in the first place, then you’re to cover all their potential losses, work spent on logistics and staging, all that jazz. Assuming you’ll even _find_ mercenaries willing to bother. In all likelihood, that market will very quickly end up dominated by alt-corp/alliances of the highsec wardeccers in the first place, scamming the bears out of their money, which then goes straight to the wardeccers who’ll take down the structure and reanchor another to go for the next few hundred dimlings. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/962 "2018-10-05T20:54:57Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > You are genuinely a moron. Stopped reading right there. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=47) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=49)