# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/963 "2018-10-05T20:55:55Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Stopped reading right there. I’m still not convinced you’re capable of reading. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/964 "2018-10-05T20:57:04Z")
Metaphoricali speaking you want to play footbal they want to play chess. You will never met in the middle. It’s the part you don’t understand, you play different kind of games but both of you play in the same sandbox. Your opinions and ideas about wardec don’t change anything, I read similiar ones for 5 years I’ve been here, they won’t change a thing. Wardec + Structures would be bigger fail that what we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/965 "2018-10-05T20:59:21Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > I read similiar ones for 5 years I’ve been here, they won’t change a thing. Wardec + Structures would be bigger fail that what we have now. This issue has persisted for long. Now CSM and CCP finally realized it, and stated it as a priority in minutes. Structure based wardec was brought up by Steve already years ago, and has been constantly prevalent in wardev change discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/966 "2018-10-05T21:00:13Z")
How so? Let’s say you right and noone will ever show up to attack war structure. This will be exactly same situation we have now, not better, not worse. But if at least 1% more of wardecs will lead to actual fighting - I call it a win. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/967 "2018-10-05T21:02:00Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > You are genuinely a moron Salty. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > You think a disorganized rabble of hisec bears are going to ‘steamroll’ experienced and organized PvPers on a structure timer they are: Can be done. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > a) The ones setting up in the first place, dictating both location and timezone. > b) Will be prepared to defend. > c) Will invest in defensive doctrines for. > d) Will be able to cheese like hell (neutral logi, etc. All the same old things you always see from them) It depends on the setup of the structures in terms of vulnerability, of course the defender should have priority in terms of TZ choice. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > If you want to improve player retention, this really isn’t the way to do it. As someone with a lot of experience here, most of these people won’t undock for _any_ fights, for any potential reward/war-end. The ones that do are going to be really lackluster in combat ability, experience, doctrine wrangling, organization and so on and so forth. So why are you worried then, more content. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > At absolute best, you’ll get a small fraction of each wardecced corporation showing up in some awful mishmash kitchensink that’ll get stomped and cheesed to bits by the actually decent PvPers who will know exactly how to counter these things. More pixels blowing up. Everything you have said so far is positive. People will see a chance to end the war and they will have a go at it especially if a number of people try to work together and they will get better at it, because there are people who will help them. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > As for mercenaries, again, actual mercenary here. Do you have any idea what it’d cost to hire a decent set of mercenaries to go up against a decent set of PvPers on a structure grid? I At the moment they don’t exist, so you have no idea either. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > It’s three ops, over at least a week. This will require payment for a sizable number of people, their deployment and staging, full SRP, etc etc. There was a saying a little while back, as far as mercenary work goes: “We don’t even undock for less than 5b.” That’s just to push the undock button in the first place, then you’re to cover all their potential losses, work spent on logistics and staging, all that jazz. Lazy players easy to beat. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Assuming you’ll even _find_ mercenaries willing to bother. In all likelihood, that market will very quickly end up dominated by alt-corp/alliances of the highsec wardeccers in the first place, scamming the bears out of their money, which then goes straight to the wardeccers who’ll take down the structure and reanchor another to go for the next few hundred dimlings. They are not mercs, they are scammers. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/968 "2018-10-05T21:02:16Z")
No it’s not a win if EvE would still hemorrhaging players. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/969 "2018-10-05T21:04:20Z")
if 1% more players will enjoy PvP and will not leave EvE I will call it a win. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/970 "2018-10-05T21:05:29Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > No it’s not a win if EvE would still hemorrhaging players. How would the opportunity to moblilize, join up, hire mercs and wreck a wardec structure of an attacking corp, to end the wardecs, NOT increase retention of players that otherwise leave when wardecced? You arent making sense. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/971 "2018-10-05T21:05:43Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > More pixels blowing up. Everything you have said so far is positive. > > People will see a chance to end the war and they will have a go at it especially if a number of people try to work together and they will get better at it, because there are people who will help them. They might the first time. There is a wild chance they will the second time. There is no chance they will the third time. You are now back to the current situation except with even more abuse heaped on anyone who dares speak up about how bad it is. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/972 "2018-10-05T21:06:43Z")
So it would be like 300 with current PCU? While thousands probably leaving? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/973 "2018-10-05T21:07:30Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > While thousands probably leaving? They are already leaving. Thats why a fix is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/974 "2018-10-05T21:07:51Z")
Players how actually taste war will lose most of fears related to EvE PVP. This is good. I don’t see any cons against war structures. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/975 "2018-10-05T21:08:45Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > They might the first time. > There is a wild chance they will the second time. > There is no chance they will the third time. > > You are now back to the current situation except with even more abuse heaped on anyone who dares speak up about how bad it is. Again you disappoint me, you might be surprised at what develops, there are players around who are up for this, and are seriously looking forward to it. There are a lot of fat lazy scammers who call themselves mercs who relied on super botting to make themselves strong, yet look how they caved against PH. it is staring you in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/976 "2018-10-05T21:09:02Z")
And why it is not happening now? Why all those wadecc corp just hire mercs? You just add more variables to equation that has the same result : they don’t want to pvp. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/977 "2018-10-05T21:10:31Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Pedro, we cant fix people that wont PvP, no matter what. > > That is a foregone situation. Of course not. Which is why we need a solution that doesn’t involve people to deciding to suddenly start PvPing. We can talk about re-balancing wars until we are blue in the face. What changes advantage who, or what risks and costs should come with them, and what is more likely to produce interesting fights. None of that matters to addressing the problem inducing such panic in some of the CSM. It is the fact that a large number of players just won’t participate and just log out. It’s not like we can’t come up with solutions that target those players. I have no doubt there there is some combination of war structures and related mechanics that would induce you and a few of the other braver highseccers to try go after the wardeccers, at least maybe the first time. But that won’t help the vast majority of players who won’t undock to fight a battle-hardened mercenary group no matter what. There is no point spending the limited development resources on building or revamping such a niche system that only a few players are going to use, at least until the broader “carebear problem” is dealt with and there is some way for them to play the game in a war-free way as a group. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/978 "2018-10-05T21:10:57Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > So why are you worried then, more content. Even less content, when the bears try and then _fail_. This’ll be even more detrimental to retention than it is now. False hope is a ■■■■■. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > More pixels blowing up. Everything you have said so far is positive. > > People will see a chance to end the war and they will have a go at it especially if a number of people try to work together and they will get better at it, because there are people who will help them. Not for player retention. The people who are willing to go out and do this stuff? They’re already doing it right now. They’re not the problem. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > At the moment they don’t exist, so you have no idea either. … hiring mercs to take on enemy structures “don’t exist”? Are you deficient? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/979 "2018-10-05T21:11:50Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > And why it is not happening now? Facepalm… The whole point with a wardec structure, is you can end ALL wars issued from it by destroying it. You dont have to beat the attacker, you can finally just wreck that structure, and ALL wars from it end as victory for defender. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/980 "2018-10-05T21:11:54Z")
Because now there no clear condition, you can now pay mercs do what? Killed war structure and finished wardec is such condition. You can even negotiate deadlines on reinforcement timers. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/981 "2018-10-05T21:13:10Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > Again you disappoint me, you might be surprised at what develops, there are players around who are up for this, and are seriously looking forward to it. There are a lot of fat lazy scammers who call themselves mercs who relied on super botting to make themselves strong, yet look how they caved against PH. it is staring you in the face. Those players are already in low/null corps and already fight back against wardecs. This will change nothing in terms of activity and retention, if anything it will hurt it because anyone who speaks out will get attacked even more. Also PH are not some bunch of 6 month old players. The average age of Horde is several years and climbing, and they can regularly field high end fleets. Just because they are far younger than PL/Goons/BL etc doesn’t make them ‘newbies’ ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/982 "2018-10-05T21:13:25Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > How would the opportunity to moblilize, join up, hire mercs and wreck a wardec structure of an attacking corp, to end the wardecs, NOT increase retention of players that otherwise leave when wardecced? > > You arent making sense. Because these are typically players with zero interest in PvP. I’m not sure if anything would change that, but it would have to be something realistically achievable by the least organized players in the game. Hence my suggestion of something based around the battle scores. Destroy enough points of the attackers and the war ends, which can be done with enough cheap t1 ships. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=48) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=50)