# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/983 "2018-10-05T21:14:48Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Even less content, when the bears try and then _fail_ . This’ll be even more detrimental to retention than it is now. False hope is a ■■■■■. Nope, you have to earn it be doing it, some people know that, get ready for it. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Not for player retention. The people who are willing to go out and do this stuff? They’re already doing it right now. They’re not the problem. Wrong. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > … hiring mercs to take on enemy structures “don’t exist”? Are you deficient? You are deficient, go up above in this thread and you will see people saying that they find structures boring etc., for years hisec mercs would only attack small POS towers and some people said that they are not attacking structures. It is said in this thread. Go and read it. As I said they don’t exist so you have no idea about their cost, especially as you have no idea just what these structures will be like. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/984 "2018-10-05T21:15:07Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > Hence my suggestion of something based around the battle scores. Destroy enough points of the attackers and the war ends, which can be done with enough cheap t1 ships. The Tournament score model wont work in EVE proper, especially not in this regard where we are trying stop the bleed of players from overwhelming wardecs in HS. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/985 "2018-10-05T21:15:41Z")
and while they will wait week for reinforcement timer defender station will be camped by attackers? What would change? It’s a simple fact you both don’t understand: people don’t want to pvp, no matter what conditions you make for them. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/986 "2018-10-05T21:16:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Great! I hope they enjoy it. Everyone should work hard to find their bliss. And I don’t mean the murder machine who runs Init, @Brisc_Rubal. You should, because Bliss is awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/987 "2018-10-05T21:17:20Z")
> [@Jeremiah\_Saken](#): > > and while they will wait week for reinforcement timer defender station will be camped by attackers? Who said the wardec structure would have a weeks reinforcement timers. And its NOT a defender station. Its the ATTACKERS structure, from which and with which they issued a wardec on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/988 "2018-10-05T21:17:48Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Those players are already in low/null corps and already fight back against wardecs. This will change nothing in terms of activity and retention, if anything it will hurt it because anyone who speaks out will get attacked even more. > Also PH are not some bunch of 6 month old players. The average age of Horde is several years and climbing, and they can regularly field high end fleets. > Just because they are far younger than PL/Goons/BL etc doesn’t make them ‘newbies’ Oh dear, are you comparing PH as they are now, Munnin fleets and capitals, as compared to those that used Hurricanes in Perimeter. You know what I was there. I saw it happen, did you? They were a lot lower quality then as compared to now and yet they still won and do you know why? Because after a bit numbers will defeat quality, the sherr DPS of massed canes defeated the bling fits and logi. I was there I saw it, did you? So I am there then and I get a war deck, more pixels to blow up. Because when this changes back to hisec I will go. I am pretty sure that I could get a nice hurricane fleet sorted out in hisec. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/989 "2018-10-05T21:18:35Z")
THey don’t need fight themselves, you know. They can hire some other, more agressive and prepaired guyz to do dirty work for them. Now this is not an option, because there is no way to stop war for defender side. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/990 "2018-10-05T21:22:54Z")
Hisec corp CEO: …but that merc cost is high, so dock for the week and don’t feed them kills… Where’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/991 "2018-10-05T21:23:53Z")
because all structures are designed that way, it’s world wide server. People must have time to defend them. > [@Hlamon](#): > > THey don’t need fight themselves, you know. They can hire some other, more agressive and prepaired guyz to do dirty work for them. Now this is not an option, because there is no way to stop war for defender side. sure because that is not abusabale at all… I create two corp one for agres second to defend from my first one. Guys ideas are great but if you want to check if they are valid try this: How I would abuse the system? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/992 "2018-10-05T21:25:34Z")
I’d lay good odds you couldn’t get the same fleet to achieve the same results. Because they won’t be highly trained pilots. Canes at the time were one of the most cost effective sub cap alpha doctrines. Which meant they could just alpha through any any logi, knowing that there was a limit to the ehp that could be on the grid due to the subcap limit of highsec. You are mistaking flying a T1 BC with only being able to fly a T1 BC and not using it because it was the best tool for the job. The PH of the time could field capitals just fine as well. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/993 "2018-10-05T21:25:49Z")
There will be choice to make. and what you call high price? How many will bashing one structure cost? To [Jeremiah Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken) Sure, but if your alt corp will not end war - nobody will pay you. You can scam some people before reputation will stick, though, but this is eve all about. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/994 "2018-10-05T21:25:58Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > There is no point spending the limited development resources on building or revamping such a niche system that only a few players are going to use, at least until the broader “carebear problem” is dealt with and there is some way for them to play the game in a war-free way as a group. Are you trying to indicate “social corps”? NS will exploit the hell out of those to move stuff between HS and NS, and back. All Corps are already social, including NPC. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/995 "2018-10-05T21:27:07Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Are you trying to indicate “social corps”? > > NS will exploit the hell out of those to move stuff between HS and NS, and back. How will NS exploit them any more than an NPC corp pilot can be ‘exploited’ ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/996 "2018-10-05T21:28:13Z")
Oh, that hook definitely got bites. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/997 "2018-10-05T21:32:17Z")
pay more than the structure and we stop harrasing you/defend you? ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/998 "2018-10-05T21:33:21Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Are you trying to indicate “social corps”? > > NS will exploit the hell out of those to move stuff between HS and NS, and back. > > All Corps are already social, including NPC. 🙂 Non-wardeccable corps are already in the game in the form of NPC corps, and used by nullsec groups and others to routinely move stuff about. A player-controlled non-wardeccable corp isn’t going to break the game. Whether it is some flavour of the ‘social corp’ proposal, or something else entirely, there are ways players can be allowed to play Eve as a group and not deal with wars. Sure, these groups need to be balanced so that taking the risk of being in a competitive corp is advantageous, and I have no doubt that deciding on what a wardec-free corp should and should not have is going to be another firestorm of controversy, but I see no deal-breaker here in coming up with a system that keeps players out of wars if they accept some limitations. Well, the forum suggests we’ve been at this enough so I’ll leave things here. ---
**Author:** ![Hlamon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hlamon/32/241936_2.png) [@Hlamon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Hlamon)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/999 "2018-10-05T21:34:45Z")
Again, choices to be made. Some will pay, some will fight, some will logoff and quit. But there will be options at least. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1000 "2018-10-05T21:35:09Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > I’d lay good odds you couldn’t get the same fleet to achieve the same results. Because they won’t be highly trained pilots. A number of years back I was in IRC, they were not as bad as people said, then Elo Knight FC’d an IRC Maelstrom fleet and completely destroyed a similar sized Goon fleet in the same ship. I was in that fleet, so what are you saying again? > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Canes at the time were one of the most cost effective sub cap alpha doctrines… They will have the same effect, in fact better, because of the T3C changes, in other words a much weaker tank and ability. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You are mistaking flying a T1 BC with only being able to fly a T1 BC and not using it because it was the best tool for the job. I am very aware what a Cane can do, with T2 guns and T1 guns. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > knowing that there was a limit to the ehp that could be on the grid due to the subcap limit of highsec. That makes no sense at all. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > The PH of the time could field capitals just fine as well. Their main line doctrine was Hurricanes and they defeated the cream of hisec in bling stuff. The current PH is actually very good and has a lot of capitals. The one that defeated hisec mercs was no where near what they are now. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremiah\_Saken](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jeremiah_saken/32/266740_2.png) [@Jeremiah\_Saken](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jeremiah_Saken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1001 "2018-10-05T21:40:28Z")
and we in the same place as before, nothing was solved. People don’t wanted to fight still won’t be. This is because we have false perception about whole thing: it’s not a WAR in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1002 "2018-10-05T22:01:14Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > It depends on the setup of the structures in terms of vulnerability, of course the defender should have priority in terms of TZ choice. If by ‘defender’ you mean the targets of the wardec, it will not happen. Structure timers are set by the owner. The initial RF can be done whenever, but the final timer is always at the owner’s discretion. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=49) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=51)