# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1063 "2018-10-06T12:03:04Z")
> [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](#): > > prevent people uninterested in constant pvp from logging off completely. What do you have against implementing a single wardec structure, the destruction of which ends all wardecs issued through it? What are you so afraid of about it? As to Marmite and PIRAT, they can go wreck the other’s wardec structures too, thus ending their active wars. Didnt think about that, did you. The exact details of the wardec structure, and wardec costs/numbers provided by it and upgrades can be ironed out, but the concept itself is on sound ground. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1064 "2018-10-06T13:02:02Z")
Oh no. Content. How awful. Can’t miners use any one elses citadel as long as it’s public, ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1065 "2018-10-06T13:07:23Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Because a bunch of miners have no choice now but to put up a citadel if they want to compress their ore for free ship it off to Jita … The compression of the ore is not free (requiring a citadel), nor is shipping it to Jita (either as contract or opportunity cost). Nor is the acquisition of that ore free in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1066 "2018-10-06T13:21:26Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Take a look at my killboard and more specifically my alliances and you will find stark evidence that the majority of those killed by war decs are people from Nullsec. That’s because everyone else just docks up and quits… The site you have linked is not relevant to this discussion, it is at best a diversion. The problem is not ships dying it is ships rusting in their docks. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1067 "2018-10-06T13:24:07Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Take a look at my killboard Your killboard is irrelevant, anecdotal and inconsequential. Nobody cares about your killboard, nor does it matter at all. CSM and CCP, can you please provide us with the numbers on player attrition during/after wardecs? ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1068 "2018-10-06T14:03:41Z")
All you are suggesting is protecting large Corps and Alliances, it does not help smaller, new corps, the target audience in this retention issue. So, Wardeccers stop deccing large entities, smaller entities don’t have the Isk or the connections to pay others to blow up a structure. Were are we at? Square one again? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1069 "2018-10-06T14:06:04Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Were are we at? An option to end all wardecs from a corp, by destroying the structure that issued it. Take it out alone, with others, or with mercs, and the wars end. Dont have to chase ships around. Just kill the structure, ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1070 "2018-10-06T14:09:11Z")
Again, if Wardeccers do not Wardec any entities that have the resources to do this destruction of a structure, why would they waste their time getting involved. Remember, this is new players who cannot pay Mercs, who cannot form a force, people who just log off at the sight of a Wardec. Are you going to spend all of your gametime destroying these things for free to help out new players? ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1071 "2018-10-06T14:18:43Z")
The Tears are great in this post. Keep it up! GRRR… WARDECS! :parrot::parrot::parrot::parrot::parrot: So many people who have no clue about wars, making up the most stupid “solutions”. Tora “The guy who started the most wars in Eve” Bushido ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1072 "2018-10-06T14:20:46Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Remember, this is new players who cannot pay Mercs Where did you get the notion its “new players” that are dropping out of EVE due to wardecs? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1073 "2018-10-06T14:28:13Z")
And on the basis of this proposal, I say Miz for CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1074 "2018-10-06T14:34:54Z")
Answer the question, if larger entities have no vested interest, who destroys the structures? Remember the type of player you are dealing with on the defenders side before you answer, one that just logs off at the sight of a wardec. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1075 "2018-10-06T14:46:43Z")
I listed numerous examples, I, like you, are working off a few lines of text from a minutes meeting and making assumptions. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Remember, this is new players who cannot pay Mercs, who cannot form a force, people who just log off at the sight of a Wardec. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1076 "2018-10-06T14:58:50Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > For example I got a large number of Noobs to shoot a Medium POS in Niarja of the corp that had war decked them when I brought my lads in as allies. It is easy to do. Did you get them to do it _twice_? > [@Dracvlad](#): > > Otherwise the blanket war deckers will set them all outside the TZ of the defenders and just laugh at the change as they are only interested in passing targets not the entities main play time. Once again: Welcome to how war in EVE actually works. TZ tanking to prevent the other guy from being able to effectively form? Yeah, we’ve been complaining about it since Upwell structures went in. It’s not changing any time soon. > [@Mingja](#): > > Have no timer at all. Like: the defender is free to engage at every time. Also not gonna happen. The initial attack can be done at any time, but CCP’s made it clear structures will have timers, and those timers will be at the owner’s discretion so the structure can be defended. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > If CCP makes an error here in not assessing who the real defender is in this then it will not change a thing. The defender in a war is not the same as the defender in a battle. The targets of the wardec would be the aggressors in a counter-attack. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > “Asterix & Obelisk” Goin’ old school. Nice. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > now the data is so dire it has some movement, its time to do more than just flop out a structure and say “there you go, all fixed, k thanks, bye! lol” Have you been paying attention to the fact that CCP keeps saying they can’t take the time to do things right, they just want to ‘twist some knobs’ here and there? Believe me, I’d love it if they listened, but I suspect we’re gonna get more knob-twisting. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > about as appealing as a dingo farm next to a daycare centre Really, you’ve got the imagery thing going today, don’t you? 🙂 > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Wasn’t one of the design goals of FozzieSov to divide forces up to reduce the performance impacts of blobbing? It was. But FozzieSov != Structure Bashing. You need massed force to kill a keepstar, and when the other side can just undock titans from it… well, your massed force needs to be able to eat doomsdays. Also, have you paid attention to just how much everyone loves Aegis Sov? We just can’t get enough of that entosis mechanic! (please, kill me now if I ever have to fit up another entosis rapier.) > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > I’ve decided to just keep answering your posts by quoting other people now. I like how you made that into it’s own little conversation. That was smooth. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Many non-pvpers trying this will be terribad, at first. > But they will learn, get better, and hopefully find satisfaction in somehing they havent tried before, and with a concrete reward of ending the wardecs bothering them. This is an incredibly optimistic viewpoint, but first they’d have to _not be the people who dock up to avoid PvP in the first place_. Which they are. > [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](#): > > fights against small scale wardeccers, not about the big ones against which bears stand no chance to begin with How many ‘small-scale wardeccers’ do you think are out there? People want a war declared, they hire Marmite or PIRAT. Name recognition matters. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > In the meantime, however, industrialists are typically quite isk wealthy, and certainly materials rich. That… is making _quite_ the assumption about just how much time and effort people are putting into mining and industry. The industrialists who get rich aren’t usually the ones who stayed in highsec, with its low-end ores, crappy moongoo, station fees and taxes, and, you know, the utter _lack_ of any real security or protection. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > All they need to beat, is the single wardec structure. And whatever forces the wardeccers use to defend it. You keep responding to the idea that the PvErs have to beat the PvPers with ‘they just have to beat the structure’ and then ignoring the fact that beating the structure _will include beating the PvPers who own it_. They’ll lose. When they lose, they’ll get even more demoralized than they were about the wardec itself, because instead of thinking they’re helpless against the bullies, they’ll have gone ahead and _proven_ it. Congratulations. The problem is that wardecs have the _effect_ of forcing a certain segment of the population to dock up for a week. Once they do that, _they find something else to do_. The gameplay they are being denied is not gameplay that is compelling enough for them to come back to it after their habits have changed. Adding more gameplay they _don’t want_ isn’t going to make them decide ‘yeah, now I really miss sitting in an ice belt for 8h in my mackinaw’. > [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > The Tears are great in this post. Keep it up! Hey, Tora? If I send someone from INN to discuss this part of the minutes with you, get your thoughts on wardecs and how CCP might be able to address the issue of people just not coming back after, would they be able to get a decent interview, or you gonna smug it up over this thread? 😉 (I was just gonna ask for your suggestion, but then thought ‘hey, I can pay some writer to do that…’) ---
**Author:** ![darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/darkestkhan_eriker/32/390091_2.png) [@darkestkhan\_Eriker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/darkestkhan_Eriker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1077 "2018-10-06T15:17:39Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > How many ‘small-scale wardeccers’ do you think are out there? People want a war declared, they hire Marmite or PIRAT. Name recognition matters. Not many. In fact that was my point - structure would work with small wardeccer, not with any of big ones. In fact you don;t even need structures to deal with small wardeccers - a couple cruiser/bc may be enough to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Zar\_Myx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zar_myx/32/75333_2.png) [@Zar\_Myx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zar_Myx)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1078 "2018-10-06T15:45:39Z")
SO we are all still talking like some magical structure is going to make hisec want to undock and play. We still have people who like to kick over sandcastles trying to figure out why others like to build them? This structure will not do anything to solve the real issue of player retention for the people under unwanted wardec’s. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/374866_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1079 "2018-10-06T15:59:43Z")
Well… I miss mining in a Mackinaw. Just not enough to re-subscribe 3 accounts. And I sometimes miss running L4, just not enough to do the same ones over again for the 100th time . 😉 But on the wardec proposal… why should a new player want to fight a war, even by doing what he already does? Why should he be forced to do something based on some asshat picking him out of a crowd of new players? Playing EVE is a passtime, not a privilege. You pay for ti and that’ ti, if anything or anybody stand in yoru way of doing what you effin pelase with your effin moeny and time, you just drop it. Specially, you’re right, if what you do is highsec, which is an acquired taste with a pinch of masochism (or denial). And something you do alone, you don’t owe anything to anyone if you just decide to stop palying because of a wardec. See, my first wardec came with the instructions of what do: I was wardecced at EVE-U, and we dropped corp. In any other case, I probably would had stopped playing for a week. At that point, I probably was hooked enough to come back, but, if it had happened in my second or third month… well… that would have been the end. ---
**Author:** ![Kylanti\_Hendar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kylanti_hendar/32/385538_2.png) [@Kylanti\_Hendar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kylanti_Hendar)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1080 "2018-10-06T16:21:46Z")
I think the entire system should be ripped out. Replaced with 3 tiered corps. Hisec: Can’t be shot in Hisec legally. High Npc tax rate. Can’t place structures. Must have high security status \>=0 to remain in Corp. Mutually agreed wars allowed. Eg. Npc corps, social corps. Losec: Can be shot in Hisec by low and high corps. Med Npc tax rate. Can place structures. Special cases for Fw corps. Nullsec: Can be shot by anyone in Hisec. No Npc tax. Shooting Losec Corp structures causes suspect flag. td,lr: hisec becomes safer for Npc corps and mission running corps. Null sec players can be shot anywhere. Hisec pvpers would need to join a lowsec Corp as they would loose sec status and would then be shootable. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1081 "2018-10-06T16:25:00Z")
> [@Kylanti\_Hendar](#): > > Null sec players can be shot anywhere. Why? According to the Empires, we’re law-abiding individuals. When we go out into nullsec to shoot one another, we’re doing what CONCORD expressly allows. So why should people who are obeying the law be punished by it? 🙂 And really, here’s the response you’ll get, if that happens: “Well, if you want us to _not_ be law-abiding individuals, ok. I’m sure we’ll be able to find a few thousand folks among all of nullsec who wouldn’t mind using week old alpha clones in NPC corps to go do random suicide ganking in groups of 30-50 all over highsec for a week or ten in protest. Might make for an interesting variation on the annual Burn Jita event. ‘Burn Highsec’.” Right now, we ignore highsec to make war on one another. Make highsec pilots who don’t like to fight into our _enemies_… and PIRAT and Marmite will be the _least_ of your worries. And that’s not really a threat, it’s a prediction. I don’t want to see that happen. I don’t think you want to see that happen. But if you get CCP to, in effect, have highsec _capsuleers_ (not CONCORD, not the Empires themselves) exist in a state of war against nullsec capsuleers… nullsec capsuleers _will_ fight back. We’re the idiots who weaponize our own masochism and boredom, remember. Give us an environment where the targets can’t see us coming because they don’t know how to use standings, and the threat is coming from inside the NPC corps… it’s just asking for a bloodbath. And yeah, it’s likely a bloodbath that’d hurt retention numbers. Human beings are spiteful, short-sighted things. We do things against our best long-term interests, especially when we get mad or feel picked on. Doesn’t make it right, but it does mean you have to take that kind of reaction into account. ---
**Author:** ![Faylee\_Freir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/faylee_freir/32/439750_2.png) [@Faylee\_Freir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Faylee_Freir)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1082 "2018-10-06T18:35:21Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Your killboard is irrelevant, anecdotal and inconsequential. > Nobody cares about your killboard, nor does it matter at all. > [@Kylanti\_Hendar](#): > > That’s because everyone else just docks up and quits… > The site you have linked is not relevant to this discussion, it is at best a diversion. The problem is not ships dying it is ships rusting in their docks. I think this is a huge line of crap. So tell me exactly what makes them dock up, stay logged off, and never return to the game. Is it the magical ominipresent nature of these boogeymen? The rhetoric before this data was that war dec groups were mostly never seen outside of trade hubs. So why are new players logging off and docking up if they are mostly not getting killed in some inproportionate way? Is there something oppressive about being in a war dec that is so scary that it literally kills the way you play the game? The fact is that by now with how the war dec meta has changed, new players don’t see and haven’t seen a meta where the aggressors are hunting them. If new players are loggin off and docking up then it’s their leaderships fault for pointing them in that direction when instead they can likely mine and mission in peace since they will need see a war target unless they go to a hub. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=53) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=55)