# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1103 "2018-10-07T07:12:02Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > They’ll be ganking everything that moves in highsec, _en masse_ , without wardecs, in suicide catalysts. They’ll be doing that until CCP gets the hint that favoring one section like that at the expense of the more organized sections of space is probably very bad for their bottom line. Nice blackmail. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1104 "2018-10-07T07:12:47Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Nullsec has no interest in highsec war decs. Nullsec (and lowsec) have a great deal of interest in coded systems that would make things easier for them getting implemented and then denied to them. Two separate issues there. They won’t care about how the structure relates to highsec war decs. They’ll care that highsec got something new and shiny that makes a defensive war less of a pain the butt, and nobody else did. That makes no sense, because the timers that matter for nullsec sov and citadels are in favour of the defender, in lowsec it is defined by the defender. The defender in this case in hisec defines the structure that controls the war dec within their TZ, no issue. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And as a result, they will punish the people who got the new shiny. Because this is EVE, where 99.9999999% of the players are mean. So what…, you have a hisec ganking group anyway, and you do hisec burn events, so what, it is part of the game, there are elements of ganking that need adjustment too so if that helps in raising those issues then feel free… ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1105 "2018-10-07T07:22:22Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nice blackmail. :shrug: call it what you like. I’m not saying it’s a mature response, or a reasonable one. But it _is_ a predictable one. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > That makes no sense, because the timers that matter for nullsec sov and citadels are in favour of the defender, in lowsec it is defined by the defender. Again, I’m not saying it’s a rational or reasonable response. And… > [@Dracvlad](#): > > So what…, you have a hisec ganking group anyway, and you do hisec burn events, so what, it is part of the game, there are elements of ganking that need adjustment too so if that helps in raising those issues then feel free… Yes, we have MiniLuv. It’s something like 200 people. And yes, we do Burn events, which last for a weekend and consume something like 5 systems, usually, with maybe 2-3000 participants (there’s usually 3 full fleets up at all times). Now imagine that across all of highsec, with 20,000 people doing it. Because it won’t just be us. And it won’t just be freighters getting hit. Consider the thing that this structure is supposed to fix: people feeling forced to dock up for a week or more, so they give up and play some other game. If highsec gets shut down, or even just significantly hampered, on the massive scale that _is possible_… how do you think that affects retention numbers in highsec? Do you think it helps the problem this structure’s supposed to fix? Or do you think it turns the problem into a much, much bigger one? I really don’t want to see that happen. I don’t think it’s good for the game, and I think a healthy highsec is needed for low and null. That doesn’t mean I can’t say with a fair degree of certainty that vicious, spiteful, often downright immature behavior runs _deep_ in the EVE playerbase, and CCP knows it. They’ve seen Jita riots, they’ve seen the Summer of Rage. They saw just two weeks ago when basically, they pissed off just the _wormholers_… and they changed course (wisely, in my book), fast. No, they’re not going to put a structure in that will bury highsec under the rage of lowsec and nullsec. It’s just not smart, and for all that I criticize their decisions sometimes, the guys behind those decisions _are_ smart. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1106 "2018-10-07T07:24:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m not saying it’s a mature response, or a reasonable one. Prove that it will happen. And so what if it happens. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Now imagine that across all of highsec, with 20,000 people doing it. I dont think so. > [@Arrendis](#): > > No, they’re not going to put a structure in that will bury highsec under the rage of lowsec and nullsec. Thats not up to you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1107 "2018-10-07T07:31:08Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Prove that it will happen. Tell you what. Go back through these forums and the old ones, and look at how many times Goons have told CCP exactly how things will play out, and basically said ‘please do not do this. If you do this, _here_ is how we will abuse this mechanic horribly’. And then, when CCP went and did it, we did exactly what we said we’d do, and suddenly the mechanic had to change. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > And so what if it happens. Well, for one thing, your short-sighted ambivalence will be shown to be pretty damn silly, huh? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Thats not up to you. It’s a prediction, not a directive. You don’t get to tell me how I see this playing out. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1108 "2018-10-07T07:34:01Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Tell you what. Go back through these forums and the old ones, and look at how many times Goons have told CCP exactly how things will play out, and basically said ‘please do not do this. If you do this, _here_ is how we will abuse this mechanic horribly’. And then, when CCP went and did it, we did exactly what we said we’d do, and suddenly the mechanic had to change. Yes, we are all aware of Goons history of forcing and influencing CCP to agree to their terms. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, for one thing, your short-sighted ambivalence will be shown to be pretty damn silly, huh? It will last at most a week, and everyone goes back to business as usual. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You don’t get to tell me how I see this playing out. You dont get to decide what changes are discussed and implemented. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1109 "2018-10-07T07:47:12Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > You dont get to decide what changes are discussed and implemented. Nor am I claiming to. So go ahead and keep accusing me of things I’m not doing, when I’m just laying out I see this all playing out _if_ CCP does something that would _already_ violate a number of the principles they’ve established for how structures work. Really, I’m sorry if you don’t like the idea that I can illustrate _with ease_ a number of problems with this idea that you seem to think will be some magic fix to make people who don’t want to PvP suddenly jump up and go ‘OMG, what a great chance to do that thing I don’t want to do!’ It’s not my fault you can’t see how this plays out. And when it doesn’t happen the way you want it to, that won’t be my fault either. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 7:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1110 "2018-10-07T07:54:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m just laying out I see this all playing out _if_ CCP does something that would _already_ violate a number of the principles they’ve established for how structures work. It hasnt been decided how exactly the structure will work. Iirc CCP stated in the minutes that the structure option is what they are primarily looking at as a solution now, and it received support from a number of CSM. Wardecs are, and have been, a problem on their own, aside from the recently discovered problem of it causing players to not return to EVE. If both problems can be fixed with one stone, great, but doesnt have to be. Solutions also dont have to be 100% effective. Doesnt matter if Goons threaten to mass suicide gank HS as a result. It will last at most a week till they get their childish rage out of their system, because they didnt get what they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1111 "2018-10-07T08:01:37Z")
it doesn’t matters how the structure works. The wardec victims will not use it. Your proposal is like borrowing a car to someone who doesn’t wants to ride a car -it won’t work no matter how fancy is the car. The issue is that _players refuse to play when they are wardecced_. There is nothing you can do so they do what they don’t want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1112 "2018-10-07T08:02:07Z")
In terms of the Goons and anyone else throwing their toys around over that balance change, well just do it if you feel that it hurts your feelings so much. Get it out of your system. I don’t care if you do it and I don’t think it matters or makes a difference… This is not the same as greed is good. If they removed war decs and ganking then it might be. But it is still weird that you have gone from nullsec does not care to throwing your toys around. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1113 "2018-10-07T08:02:20Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > The wardec victims will not use it. Some will. More than now. And they arent “victims”, they are defenders. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1114 "2018-10-07T08:03:41Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It will last at most a week till they get their childish rage out of their system, cost they didnt get what they wanted. There’s been other folks who’ve believed we don’t have any endurance. That worked out well for them. 😉 But keep in mind, all that? That’s _just_ what I expect to see if the structure’s final timer is set by the people trying to kill it. Mind you, I’m also sure it won’t be, because that’s not how CCP has structures set up. > [@Dracvlad](#): > > But it is still weird that you have gone from nullsec does not care to throwing your toys around. Don’t worry, we all get that you don’t understand how not caring about one thing doesn’t mean we don’t care about something else. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1115 "2018-10-07T08:05:41Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s _just_ what I expect to see if the structure’s final timer is set by the people trying to kill it. No timer has been decided. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Don’t worry, we all get that you don’t understand how not caring about one thing doesn’t mean we don’t care about something else. Are you supposed to be some-kind of big-shot in Goons? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1116 "2018-10-07T08:07:03Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No timer has been decided. Yeah, no shite, Captain Obvious. Nothing specific’s been nailed down. I was speculating based on what your buddy Vlad the Original Namer was outlining as how he feels it “needs” to work. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Are you supposed to be some-kind of big-shot in Goons? Binky, the rawest newbees in Karmafleet can game this out better than you two can. ---
**Author:** ![Yiole\_Gionglao](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yiole_gionglao/32/516090_2.png) [@Yiole\_Gionglao](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yiole_Gionglao)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1117 "2018-10-07T08:07:06Z")
And some who otherwise would have fought back will hate to grind a structure instead of killing attackers & will go inactive. 🤷‍♀️ If you’re to argue with magical thinking, everybody can too. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1118 "2018-10-07T08:08:25Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Don’t worry, we all get that you don’t understand how not caring about one thing doesn’t mean we don’t care about something else. LOL, you want to make a point about your own game play issues in nullsec to use this change to say what about things we don’t like, as if that bothers me, it does not. But exposing that so openly is a bit weird. You have extrapolated that as me not understanding, I understand what your point is, I just don’t care about it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1119 "2018-10-07T08:09:21Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > I understand what your point is Clearly, you don’t, if you think not caring about wardecs means we don’t care about structure mechanics. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:09am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1120 "2018-10-07T08:09:51Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Clearly, you don’t, if you think not caring about wardecs means we don’t care about structure mechanics. This is pretty weak actually, I am surprised you even went there… ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1121 "2018-10-07T08:10:14Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Nothing specific’s been nailed down. So relax and dont have a fit till its justified. Steve has been suggesting a structure since 2013 iirc. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 8:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1122 "2018-10-07T08:11:43Z")
> [@Yiole\_Gionglao](#): > > And some who otherwise would have fought back will hate to grind a structure instead of killing attackers & will go inactive. Nothing forces you to attack the structure if you prefer not to. You can kill their ships instead, and you will have to do that anyways when they show up to defend the structure. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=55) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=57)