# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 58
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1143 "2018-10-07T09:29:21Z")
Excellent. Lets do both. Your isk reward helps return after wardec, and the wardec structure helps retention during wardec. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1144 "2018-10-07T09:29:56Z")
Eh, I wouldn’t go that far. I mean, having ‘you must have an Astrahus with the War Proclamation Module online’ as a requirement for declaring war? That at least guarantees that if the targets do group up, the aggressors can’t avoid risking something, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1145 "2018-10-07T09:31:46Z")
Except then you have the downside of structure based wars, namely that the large null groups can shut down ‘anyone’ they want (obviously only anyone without an equal sized null group sub cap umbrella duh). And you aren’t even using it for the claimed (if pretty unlikely) good point of all these non PvPers suddenly starting PvP. Which makes it an even worse idea at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1146 "2018-10-07T09:34:39Z")
I really don’t think the structure will help with retention. I think the people who are already looking for a way to fight back may be leaving that _corp_… but they’re not leaving the _game_. But there’s no reason that the presence of some kind of fixed emplacement asset can’t be part and parcel of a tiered, ‘goals and objectives’-focused war system in the first place. Defenders get bonus payout if they set/meet objectives of their own. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Except then you have the downside of structure based wars, namely that the large null groups can shut down ‘anyone’ they want Only if ‘large null groups’ bother driving into high sec to deal with it. We’re not gonna do that. NCdot _might_, being in Tribute… if it’s sitting in Lonetrek. But they’re not gonna schlep down to Metropolis to hit some merc corp’s structure, either. And for what? To avoid losing ships in highsec when all they have to do is use a neutral hauler alt? C’mon. We’ve all got enough people on our lists of ‘must kill you now’. We’re not gonna care about the scavengers who cull our weak and sickly. Also: we can shut down ‘anyone we want’? Or anyone who decides ‘hey, I think my 248-pilot wardec alliance can take on a nullsec alliance of 33,854 pilots’? I mean, yeah, it _might_ stop the idiots from being idiots, but so what? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1147 "2018-10-07T09:43:56Z")
You say that but it’s clear at least some of the null groups have high sec interests. Sure you may not though. But it still creates the environment where you can shut them down by a cta for a timer. Why make a system which we know has a major flaw. If the defenders get isk the attackers already have skin in the game to not give the defenders a pay day. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1148 "2018-10-07T09:46:21Z")
The point of all this is that the people who want to fight back in hisec do not currently have anything to force a fight on their aggressors, and that is what needs to be changed. A structure for the war dec in the time zone of the defender if it has to have vulnerability periods and reinforcement cycles, or single shot and no timer if you want to go all the way. If you want to protect hisec war deckers against nullsec alliances then you have a specific one that enables the war decker to war dec sov holders which is a lot tougher and more in line with existing structures. The structures location will be known to the defender and has to be placed in hisec. The objective is for hisec, so nullsec propaganda oepratives making threats and trying to get into arguments about it and being all smug about it is all fine and dandy and amusing to watch. It is quite easy to make this change, CCP should just do it, war deckers can then adapt or die, people who don’t like it can go and riot, adapt and die, and perhaps people in hisec will adapt and die but login and do stuff and during this the blanket war deckers will weaken and more focussed war decs between smaller groups will hopefully develop and flourish instead of the boring stale game we now have. Over to CCP and the CSM. This is all you really need to do, be brave. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1149 "2018-10-07T09:48:08Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > You say that but it’s clear at least some of the null groups have high sec interests. Sure you may not though. But it still creates the environment where you can shut them down by a cta for a timer. Ok, so, let’s look at Horde. They’ve got a bunch of cits in Perimeter, so they’re the ones most likely to bother. What does Marmite and PIRAT do to keep Horde from blowing them the hell up? How about ‘My alliance of 248 pilots just won’t wardec the second-largest alliance in the game’? How about that? Is that a reasonable way for PIRAT to not get shut down by Horde? I mean… is it really _sane_ to say ‘hey, this group of over 15,000 pilots can’t keep a group 1/60th of its size from shooting them with no consequences in Jita’? I mean, seriously man, are you really going to tell me ‘Maybe you shouldn’t go attacking nullsec groups that can squish you’ is a _flaw_? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1150 "2018-10-07T09:53:20Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > The structures location will be known to the defender and has to be placed in hisec. Kruger, you wanna maybe point out to Dunning here that > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It hasnt been decided how exactly the structure will work. I mean, since _he’s_ the one who keeps making statements about how things “will” work. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:58am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1151 "2018-10-07T09:58:40Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Kruger, you wanna maybe point out to Dunning here that If you do then I will petition you for personal harassment, are you that childish? I have suggested how it should work IMO you get all upset about it and do personal attacks. In fact I flagged your post for that pathetic insult. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1152 "2018-10-07T10:00:09Z")
If he points out that CCP hasn’t even decided on doing a structure, let alone what the specifics of the structure will be, that’s harassment? OMG, you are just a _gold_ mine, aren’t you? > [@Dracvlad](#): > > In fact I flagged your post for that pathetic insult. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1153 "2018-10-07T10:00:53Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > OMG, you are just a _gold_ mine, aren’t you? You are a gold mine. I have detailed here what should be done and you are throwing your toys around and getting personal, asking for people to gang up on me in the forums, threatening CCP with riots etc. This has been truly fascinating to see. > [@Arrendis](#): > > 👍 It is a pathetic insult. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1154 "2018-10-07T10:03:12Z")
How about this. **Stage 1: ISK Incentive.** Given the urgency of the problem, and little (as far as we know) existing development to solve it at this time, implement an ISK Incentive ASAP, paid out of the wardec, to Corps that avoid a wardec, to encourage them to return. This should not be difficult or developer intensive to implement in short time/resources. **Stage 2: Victory Conditions.** Implement specific wargoals, which determine winner/loser of a war, costs and reward. **Stage 3: Wardec Structure.** Integrate a wardec structure into the mechanics, and that wardec structure to the Victory Conditions. This gives CCP, CSM and community time to adapt between stages, observe results, discuss, develop them, to progressively try to dam up the loss of players during and after wardecs. Hows that? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1155 "2018-10-07T10:04:25Z")
I don’t think you can really establish the ISK incentive without the full system in place, as currently, the aggressors can just keep extending the war dec, which means the target would keep not getting that payout. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:05am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1156 "2018-10-07T10:05:30Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I don’t think you can really establish the ISK incentive without the full system in place, as currently, the aggressors can just keep extending the war dec, which means the target would keep not getting that payout. The extension can be considered a “new war” in accounting, and payouts set to the end of the existing dec. If EVE has to wait for the entire system to be in place, it might be a year or more from now, meanwhile EVE is losing players. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1157 "2018-10-07T10:07:11Z")
Maybe. I mean, it’s better than nothing. @gnshadowninja what do you think of all this, since you’re here? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1158 "2018-10-07T10:15:31Z")
Off the subject of structures for a moment, Pearl Abyss will probably be the final word on war decs. Considering the war system in BDO sounds very similar to our own they have it so that small guilds are protected from big guilds unless they own a node or have an active war dec which then makes them “war ready”. Only problem is this system has a flaw where big guilds have alt small groups that war dec allowing the bigger groups to do the same. Although this system sounds silly for Eve it would work to dramtically reduce the number of wars against smaller entities as it would increase the costs and make it more difficult to do. @Arrendis my thought train has headed off a different route, BDO have similar war system and complains yet have never changed it. They have protection for smaller corporations but not complete immunity. They also do not have an ‘objective’ to be able to finish a war. To add on : they also have a payment feature so there are rewards for participation in guild wars. May work along your idea of ISK incentives. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1159 "2018-10-07T10:16:46Z")
Interestingly, this also changes wardecs as a “bribe” to CONCORD, to CONCORD as impartial arbitrator of a war, whom declares the winner, measures performance of each participant, and pays out accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1160 "2018-10-07T10:18:51Z")
Does BDO have places where you can’t get attacked at all? I mean, EVE doesn’t, after all. I’m not sure something that’s tolerable in a more traditional MMO (even one with a lot of PvP) would manage the retention in a game with less visceral and engaging direct gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1161 "2018-10-07T10:19:20Z")
No offence, but BDO or PA are not the issue here. EVE and CCP development of it, is. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1162 "2018-10-07T10:20:05Z")
No, but looking at what’s worked in other games can be helpful. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=57) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=59)