# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1163 "2018-10-07T10:21:03Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Can’t miners use any one elses citadel as long as it’s public, Of course, yet not everywhere the industrialists want to be is a place where one already exists. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1164 "2018-10-07T10:21:09Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > No, but looking at what’s worked in other games can be helpful. EVE/CCP has always done its own thing. We all agree, there is no other game on the market like EVE. Nobody will agree to a place in EVE you cant be attacked at all. Caveat: Abyss is. But lets not take that as a precedent to be continued,… ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1165 "2018-10-07T10:26:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Does BDO have places where you can’t get attacked at all? I mean, EVE doesn’t, after all. I’m not sure something that’s tolerable in a more traditional MMO (even one with a lot of PvP) would manage the retention in a game with less visceral and engaging direct gameplay. Not entirely sure, from what I understand is once your in a guild this means you are ready to consent to open world pvp. Much like leaving NPC to start a corporation. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > No offence, but BDO or PA are not the issue here. Ain’t being funny but we have different opinions on the issue for last 400-500 posts. What I’m doing is looking for alternative to the consistent boring back and fourth structure talks. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1166 "2018-10-07T10:27:55Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Caveat: Abyss is. But lets not take that as a precedent to be continued They’re about to do co-op Abyssal Deadspace. (Frigates) That means the potential for awoxing. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1167 "2018-10-07T10:28:11Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > What I’m doing is looking for alternative to the consistent boring back and fourth structure talks. You suddenly went off on a BDO and PA tangent. EVE is not BDO, and you havent suggested any alternative yet based on BDO. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Not entirely sure, from what I understand Why did you go on a BDO tangent, when you dont know its mechanics? Arrendis first asked you about what was discussed above, you suddenly went BDO. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1168 "2018-10-07T10:30:05Z")
Well, I’ve fired off a synopsis of the ‘goals + payoff, maybe structure’ idea to Brisc. It’s almost 6:30 in the morning here and I ain’t slept since… Wednesday? (Chronic insomnia. This is normal) So I’m gonna sleep. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1169 "2018-10-07T10:37:42Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Arrendis first asked you about what was discussed above, you suddenly went BDO I was half way through writing a post when Arrendis asked me, to which I replied on the same post. Different games does not mean similar features cannot be looked at and discussed. This is a discussion after all. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1170 "2018-10-07T10:40:51Z")
He asked you: > [@Arrendis](#): > > Maybe. I mean, it’s better than nothing. @gnshadowninja what do you think of all this, since you’re here? Then your whole post was about BDO, not about “all this” as discussed above as, as solutions and a plan, relevant to EVE and its loss of players to wardecs dueing and after. Then you said you dont know BDO mechanics. Then you said you dont want to discuss a wardec structure. So, what do you have? ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1171 "2018-10-07T10:48:43Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Then your whole post was about BDO, not about “all this” as discussed above as, as solutions and a plan, relevant to EVE and its loss of players to wardecs dueing and after. Sorry, I tend to skip over your posts as you’ve repeated the same thing every post. Looked back, stage one ISK incentive, kinda did reply to this when talking about BDO saying they have a similar system. You get paid for participation, maybe something that could be implemented in Eve. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > **Stage 2: Victory Conditions.** > Implement specific wargoals, which determine winner/loser of a war, costs and reward. Not sure how this would work, wars in Eve usually have different goals. Some trade hub denial, structures, kills, kill certain players etc… > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > **Stage 3: Wardec Structure.** > Integrate a wardec structure into the mechanics, and that wardec structure to the Victory Conditions. Structures **MAY** work aslong as they are backed up by other changes, I’ve said this from the start that structures alone will not solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![gnshadowninja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gnshadowninja/32/160500_2.png) [@gnshadowninja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/gnshadowninja)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1172 "2018-10-07T10:50:47Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > So, what do you have? Bugger all because everytime we try discussing anything else you jump straight on the structure talk again. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1173 "2018-10-07T10:56:58Z")
> [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Bugger all because everytime we try discussing anything else you jump straight on the structure talk again. How is it my fault you have bugger all? > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Sorry, I tend to skip over your posts as you’ve repeated the same thing every post. Apology accepted, but I refute the latter. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > You get paid for participation, maybe something that could be implemented in Eve. In Arrendis idea, that would increase the defenders payout, once they are implemented in Stage 2 of my roadmap. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Not sure how this would work, wars in Eve usually have different goals. Some trade hub denial, structures, kills, kill certain players etc… Arrendis detailed some of these: > [@Arrendis](#): > > So, as an example (numbers totally made up to keep the math easy): > Let’s say it cost Corp A 1 billion ISK to declare war on Corp B. > Corp A has to define ‘victory conditions’ like 20 ships destroyed. > Corp A fails to destroy 20 of Corp B’s ships. > Corp A loses the war. > Corp B receives 250 million ISK from CONCORD. Did you not read his posts either? The declarer would set their victory conditions, and he intimated at the defender also being able to set some of their own. These would be addressed in Stage 2 of the roadmap. > [@gnshadowninja](#): > > Structures **MAY** work aslong as they are backed up by other changes And as I said all along, they structure does not have to be implemented in isolation with no other related changes. In my roadmap, they would be implemented last after a sequence of changes, thus being “backed up” by them, as you put it. The point is to stick a finger into the hole in the dam, first, ASAP with something simple, then continue reinforcing it through subsequent improvements so it leaks as little as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1174 "2018-10-07T11:33:38Z")
The more I think of Arrendis’ idea, the more I like it. It came as a shock to me at first. I’m an avid EUIV/CKII/HoI4/Stellaris player, and familiar with declared victory conditions vs payoff systems in them. The game formats as RTS are different (though EVE is RTS in meta) but they also revolve around wars, alliances, enlightened self-interest and conditions of victory. Implementation of a wardec structure, and how exactly that will work specifically, can happen later, once Stage 1 and Stage 2 have been implemented, observed and feedback gotten on them. Stage 3 , as the wardec structure, will also be the most effort intensive but puts the cherry on the wardec situation. Note: Wardec costs and quantity will need to be addressed alongside. Preferably so its cheaper for small corps to aggress larger ones, and quantity of wardecs being tied to how many Omega members you have. ---
**Author:** ![Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/corraidhin_farsaidh/32/10994_2.png) [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Corraidhin_Farsaidh)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1175 "2018-10-07T13:43:00Z")
Remember we also have system sec status we can use, so perhaps no war in 1.0, 0.9 and 0.8, but only level III mission agents there at most. If you want lvl IV’s you move down a bit and accept war risks. That way new players can still do something if they want to just wait it out. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 2:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1176 "2018-10-07T14:08:47Z")
> [@Corraidhin\_Farsaidh](#): > > Remember we also have system sec status we can use, so perhaps no war in 1.0, 0.9 and 0.8, but only level III mission agents there at most. Jita system is 0.9. All adjoining systems are 0.8+, except one as 0.7. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 3:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1177 "2018-10-07T15:07:23Z")
They’ll never remove wardecs, but if they do, I’ll probably war dec everyone in eve for a week for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1178 "2018-10-07T16:38:59Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > They’ll never remove wardecs, but if they do, I’ll probably war dec everyone in eve for a week for fun. I certainly hope you are right that they will never remove war decs. I seem to remember you war decking everything you saw a while back. Made me chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1179 "2018-10-07T17:37:56Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > I’ll probably war dec everyone in eve for a week for fun. You cant wardec NPC corps. Carebears will carebear, miners will mine. You could try that actually, after every wardec will go active, people will drop corp and all ISK paid for wardec will be gone. Nice ISK sink actually. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Zar\_Myx](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zar_myx/32/75333_2.png) [@Zar\_Myx](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zar_Myx)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1180 "2018-10-07T17:54:36Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Doesnt matter if Goons threaten to mass suicide gank HS as a result. > It will last at most a week till they get their childish rage out of their system, because they didnt get what they wanted. I think you underestimate the goons. They will be there until the skies are blue and blue only. Everyone else will stay docked. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1181 "2018-10-07T17:57:26Z")
Hilmar did not want that bonus from PA anyway. 😂 ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1182 "2018-10-07T18:16:18Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > So tell me exactly what makes them dock up, stay logged off, and never return to the game. You want players to make a habit of logging in to the game and doing things. If they get war decced, many get scared and dock up. Instead of just ship spinning, they just log out and play something else. Once you’ve done that, especially if you are an alpha account with a 24 hour skill queue and no skin in the game, you can easily get distracted by another game and just never bother logging in again. The last thing you remember was the war dec and then you’re gone and you’re off playing Fortnite or Madden and you don’t bother with EVE again. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=58) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=60)