# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1223 "2018-10-06T18:21:20Z")
CCP present CSM with data about how wardwc is harmful for Eve, and ask them for their opinion and suggestions. At the end of the day CCP will do something about that toxic activity and this is only chance to CSM put their sugestions. ---
**Author:** ![Markus\_Reinhart](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/markus_reinhart/32/133706_2.png) [@Markus\_Reinhart](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Markus_Reinhart)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1224 "2018-10-06T18:24:59Z")
The CSM has zero understanding when it comes to things beyond null lobby, even when talking about high sec wars they don’t get any further than “it hinders newbies who joined to our 0.0 alliances to get to null”. Wars need changing, but apart from some limitations it needs to come from enabling us to do wars in a different way. By removing the online list CCP forced wardeccers to either give up or group together and form a rape cage in the tradehubs. Choices -\> consequences. [edit] Also, EVE is a player driven sandbox, so all these “win conditions” silliness shouldn’t even be considered. Otherwise they might as well give up entirely and introduce Battlegrounds. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1225 "2018-10-06T18:30:34Z")
Ship explosions need to be removed. They are destructive and cause massive losses among players each year, sending them back to their stations, rendering players helpless and forcing them to obtain new ships. After seeing the number of ship explosions can one say that it justifies an immediate removal of the mechanic until a new solution is found. 🤓 ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1226 "2018-10-06T18:34:11Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/9): > > Also, EVE is a player driven sandbox, so all these “win conditions” silliness shouldn’t even be considered. Otherwise they might as well give up entirely and introduce Battlegrounds. Not any more, all recently added content are “theme park content”. ---
**Author:** ![NotTheSmartestCookie](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/notthesmartestcookie/32/168266_2.png) [@NotTheSmartestCookie](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/NotTheSmartestCookie)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1227 "2018-10-06T19:15:32Z")
Remove wardecs for all corporations that do not have any structures or POCOs. Increase CONCORD response times by 10s, restore insurance payments for ships lost to CONCORD. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Predvodnica\_LSG](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/predvodnica_lsg/32/63657_2.png) [@Predvodnica\_LSG](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Predvodnica_LSG)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1228 "2018-10-06T19:17:20Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/12): > > Remove wardecs for all corporations that do not have any structures or POCOs. Increase CONCORD response times by 10s, restore insurance payments for ships lost to CONCORD. Problem solved. To little, to late, no more CPP and Falcon, now is PA in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1229 "2018-10-06T19:36:18Z")
How much time did you spend thinking this up? ---
**Author:** ![NotTheSmartestCookie](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/notthesmartestcookie/32/168266_2.png) [@NotTheSmartestCookie](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/NotTheSmartestCookie)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1230 "2018-10-06T19:39:23Z")
For all my posts I carefully consider the thread contents and the posters, esp. the OP, and adjust time & effort accordingly. Edit: but I do agree with the overall premise of your post. ---
**Author:** ![Sugar\_Smacks](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sugar_smacks/32/430124_2.png) [@Sugar\_Smacks](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sugar_Smacks)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1231 "2018-10-06T20:04:53Z")
So far this is the 3rd topic on this subject and surely none of them are in the same space but have all been moved all over the ■■■■■■■ forums. Quality work. Hey CCP wonder why everyone is moving to Reddit? Maybe you should have a peek on how your forums are being run. [https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-csm-should-plan-discuss-balance-changes-more-holistically-and-should-be-more-inclusive-to-special-case-rules/110780/4](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/ccp-csm-should-plan-discuss-balance-changes-more-holistically-and-should-be-more-inclusive-to-special-case-rules/110780/4) > [@A new wardec mechanic](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/a-new-wardec-mechanic/108403): > > Be aware: Long post about a game mechanic that mostly affects highsec! smiley TL;DR at the end - anyway, here we go: It’s broken! Wardec mechanic is broken. Despite driving a lot of new players out of the game, the wardec mechanic in it’s current state does not lead to interesting gameplay. It rather makes people not to undock (or even log in) instead of encouraging people to fight - which should be the real goal of a war(dec), right? A goal So the most important part of a good and health… which used to be this post [https://forums.eveonline.com/t/there-isnt-a-highsec-war-dec-thread-yet/111248/3](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/there-isnt-a-highsec-war-dec-thread-yet/111248/3) By the way if I didn’t like someones topic this is EXACTLY what I would do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1232 "2018-10-06T20:49:51Z")
You’re right! And as the other thread has been combined to what appears to be the its respective main thread for now, I guess it makes sense requesting that this one is being merged as well! Just like all the others that continuously come up! @ISD_Dorrim_Barstorlode would that be okay? Can you guys make that a thing, please? 🙂 Do we have a main wardec thread and if not, can you just … like … make one? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Yigal\_Tzadok](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/yigal_tzadok/32/84615_2.png) [@Yigal\_Tzadok](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Yigal_Tzadok)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1233 "2018-10-06T23:03:03Z")
remove ammo from the game wardecs are fine as long as nobody gets hurt you can still bump people and rp ---
**Author:** ![GAREGIN\_NZHDEH](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/garegin_nzhdeh/32/343579_2.png) [@GAREGIN\_NZHDEH](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GAREGIN_NZHDEH)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1235 "2018-10-07T00:41:51Z")
While some harsh is needed to make things interesting that interest dwindles when people cannot do other interests without being bombarded by someone else’s ‘good time’ one thing that eve doesn’t have is a lack of fights, I know any time I want a fight I can get it, it may not be a fair fight but lack of interaction isn’t a problem, problem is those who want a one way transaction and those are the ones who’s kill board will be a very high percentage of high sec. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1236 "2018-10-07T01:06:58Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/19): > > It’s quite telling though that in the same paragraph it also states “The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention.” > > So all these claims that high sec violence is good for retention seems to be rubbish then. Prove to me that all those players that went quiet during the dec would stay to become long time players? Remember the last time decs got nerfed? They weren’t a big issue for retention then. In fact eve was growing every year until, would you believe it, shortly after wardecs nerfs and crimewatch… ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1238 "2018-10-07T01:23:58Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/22): > > Prove to me they wouldn’t Ccp did a few years back. Less than 1% of leavers cite ship loss. 80% of players play for a couple month leveling up their raven then quit. Far FAR more players leave this game early on without being decced or attacked compared to those that do. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1239 "2018-10-07T01:24:42Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/22): > > Correlation does not imply causation. Oh really? > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/19): > > It’s quite telling though that in the same paragraph it also states “The CSM in general were surprised at how stark the numbers were and noted it was clear this mechanic was having a significant impact on player recruitment and retention.” > > So all these claims that high sec violence is good for retention seems to be rubbish then. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1241 "2018-10-07T01:45:44Z")
I didn’t say it had no impact on retention. But that the players lost to wardecs aren’t exactly likely to stick around when they find out about ganking, or scamming or theft or any other of the harsh mechanics that make eve what it is. And yes, as far as we can tell they ARE looking at the statistics skin deep. You say they did a poor analysis before, but this one is much better becuase it fits your narrative? We haven’t been given the numbers or the nature of how they were acquired. Nor do they suggest that hi-sec violence is bad for retention. At best you can suggest the current state of wardecs is bad for retention. To which a lot of people would agree with you. Even me.😛 > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/25): > > Personally, I always pick “too expensive” when I quit any service because occasionally companies throw you freebies. This just fits you so well. I lol’d ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1242 "2018-10-07T04:34:31Z")
In cases like this one can only have faith in cooler more informed heads at CCP. It’s to me a test. After adding instanced space, unload without docking and the ECM target back deal, this will tell us if the EVE we know and knew is over. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 6:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1243 "2018-10-07T06:42:34Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/14): > > How much time did you spend thinking this up? The same 10 seconds he advocates for increasing CONCORD response times. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 6:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1244 "2018-10-07T06:43:26Z")
Any thread using the word holistically should be autolocked by ISD. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1245 "2018-10-07T06:44:31Z")
Oh…well, this thread just got Kelled. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=61) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=63)