# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jonah_gravenstein/32/386819_2.png) [@Jonah\_Gravenstein](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jonah_Gravenstein)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1364 "2018-10-07T21:28:07Z")
Not the same Mo. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1365 "2018-10-07T21:32:16Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/148): > > Back when you where one of the “bad guys” you where crying about CCP removing can flipping and countless tears about your inability to adapt like the rest of us. It is probably one of the only threads that begs CCP for making it easier for “the bad guy”. > > And now that you switched sides and transformed into a carebear you continue begging that they benefit your own playstile. I must say I already had quite a low opinion of you as Moe Badder, but this just takes the cake. And then you even call others out for having no spine like “in the good old days”… just WOW!!! What an entitled little coward. You have wrong person in mind and have me confused with someone or you mistook something and are interpreting out of context. It is also possible I did not word myself correctly, I am afterall human and text conversations do not convey context in same manner as real conversations do. However with all that said, I do not recall myself having and opinion or any “flipping out” or anything over any cans. So I’m pretty sure you are thinking of someone else here. Also, you seem to have sort sort of a personal vendetta against me though multiple threads now ? What happened ? Did some other Moe touch you somewhere sensitive in ways that are now ingrained into you ? Do you have some sort of a personal “anti-moe” fetish ? What are you butthurt over ? ---
**Author:** ![Sere\_O\_Asis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sere_o_asis/32/515651_2.png) [@Sere\_O\_Asis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sere_O_Asis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1366 "2018-10-07T21:39:24Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/32): > > he watchlist was useful for defenders also to use counter-hunting tactics…a lot of content was hindered by its removal as the tool it used to be. quoting for truth I learned about the watch list in my first player run corp, as the CEO and senior members used it extensively to monitor the movements of our war deccers (and so avoid them). Removal of the watch list impacted non-war deccing corporations significantly, as it was one extremely useful and practical way of determining where to move operations, _so players could continue to play EVE._ After it’s removal there was _no convenient_ way to track your agressors in a war. ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1367 "2018-10-07T22:00:57Z")
… but … that’s not [https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mobadder\_Thworst](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mobadder_Thworst) … Seriously! He’s not! This is hilarious! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Solecist\_Project](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solecist_project/32/479741_2.png) [@Solecist\_Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solecist_Project)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1368 "2018-10-07T22:03:44Z")
Please understand that the loss (as in, he stopped playing) of Mobadder Thworst hit a lot of people deep into the feels. You can read up on him here: [Note from retired criminal](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/note-from-retired-criminal/21780) He was a really good guy. ---
**Author:** ![Eve\_Griefer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/eve_griefer/32/277788_2.png) [@Eve\_Griefer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Eve_Griefer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1369 "2018-10-07T22:17:17Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/124): > > > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/43): > > > > Players today don’t WANT to be forced to pvp,they want pvp in special areas(like low and 0.0 in eve.) > > Explain Dark Souls then. Or, apparently, BDO > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/106): > > Very nice thoughts, explanations and very well written, BUT final decision will bring a new boss, PA. Again, BDO After looking in more detail at that game, I can see one similarity to EVE regarding PVP. ---
**Author:** ![Sere\_O\_Asis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sere_o_asis/32/515651_2.png) [@Sere\_O\_Asis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sere_O_Asis)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1370 "2018-10-07T22:40:02Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/80): > > In what ways are high sec wardecs a good thing? serious question They _can_ make the game seem alive. When I joined my first player run corporation as a newbie, the corporation was consecutively hit with 9 war decs, including one from Marmite (who to give them their due were at that time willing to roam low and null in search of war targets, at least occasionally. I know, I ran into what seemed like a wall of Marmites in VV-VCR, during our war with them.) The sense of danger created such excitement, I looked forward to logging in each night. I wanted to know what had happened to my corpies, when I wasn’t there. And you cannot imagine the sense of comradery I felt, when corp chat fell silent, after I announced I’d encountered the enemy (Marmites). As I ran (from the Marmites, through Syndicate) 30 some odd people fell silent, in corp chat, pulling for me to survive, waiting silently to see if I would. I did. We celebrated. And I’m still playing EVE today. That’s one reason why war decs can be a good thing. And it’s my reason…no second hand, a friend of my friend story. I was there. So, I’ll link this, as a reminder, of what EVE can be: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSxSyv4LC1c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSxSyv4LC1c) ---
**Author:** ![Nicoli\_Voldkif](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicoli_voldkif/32/100455_2.png) [@Nicoli\_Voldkif](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicoli_Voldkif)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1371 "2018-10-07T22:52:33Z")
High sec war decs would be fine, if you actually had to fight over something and had an end goal. Not just for the person getting war decced but the people doing the war dec. There is no way to claim a Victory in as war dec. If you war dec a corp and have absolutely no way of realistically prosecuting it right now there is no way for the defender to shut it down either. We need real objectives in war and we also need to be able to limit the scope of a war not just a blanket everywhere or no where. ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1372 "2018-10-07T23:01:04Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/152): > > Seriously! He’s not! This is hilarious! 😃 He has the same defeatist attitude and likes to beg for CCP to change the game. I bet it is the same guy. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1373 "2018-10-07T23:01:31Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/155): > > They _can_ make the game seem alive. Operative term is “can” but do not due to current mechanics and the retarded rate of abuse of those mechanics. Also, more players, especially new and far more active vs. inactive (docked up, market only alts, various AFKers, etc. etc.) is what makes the game feel alive, or at bare minimum far more then wardecs do. The main problem for us older players is exactly and precisely the fact that wardecs, by their current nature, greatly contribute to the game feeling less alive. I have no opinion on entirely turning them off, longterm. I have an opinion for short term, and that is if it is as bad as CCP provided data indicates, then do it. It is one of the few times I actually seem eye to eye with the CSM. Take the giant leap and figure out a fix later, but do figure it out, do not let it stagnate for too long. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1374 "2018-10-07T23:04:06Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/156): > > We need real objectives in war Start setting yourself objectives. You cannot be a winner when you need someone to tell you when you’ve won. If this is too difficult for you then join faction warfare. There you have goals, objectives and rewards, all nicely predefined so you can feel like a winner. But corporate warfare is free from all predefined nonsense, which only limits the imagination and one’s lack of imagination is not grounds for game changes. When you then start a war with another corporation, but don’t know why you do it, then it’s no surprise that you don’t feel like winning. To start a war for the wrong reasons has got as much consequence as starting a war for good reasons. War isn’t about starting, it’s about knowing why you take the risk of going into war in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1375 "2018-10-07T23:12:08Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/153): > > Please understand that the loss (as in, he stopped playing) of Mobadder Thworst hit a lot of people deep into the feels. You can read up on him here: [Note from retired criminal](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/note-from-retired-criminal/21780) > > He was a really good guy. From reading all that stuff I do have some similarities and some differences. My experiences and opinions are my own, however even a mistaken identity, which may happen, is not a valid reason for a personal vandetta of sorts. Even if I were that guy, which I am not, if its that personal then the people involved should take it o PMs or even settle things ingame or VOIP or something. ---
**Author:** ![Choking\_Coyote](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/choking_coyote/32/83337_2.png) [@Choking\_Coyote](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Choking_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1376 "2018-10-07T23:22:53Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/154): > > > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/124): > > > > > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/43): > > > > > > Players today don’t WANT to be forced to pvp,they want pvp in special areas(like low and 0.0 in eve.) > > > > Explain Dark Souls then. > > Or, apparently, BDO I’d like to add Elite Dangerous to that list. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1377 "2018-10-07T23:36:57Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/157): > > He has the same defeatist attitude and likes to beg for CCP to change the game. I bet it is the same guy. If you are referring to me again and do not comprehend the fact you got the wrong person, then at this point I am seriously beginning to think you’re just flat out retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Ima\_Wreckyou](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ima_wreckyou/32/235531_2.png) [@Ima\_Wreckyou](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ima_Wreckyou)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1378 "2018-10-08T00:03:54Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/162): > > you’re just flat out retarded. typical toxic carebear ---
**Author:** ![Ellison\_Onizuka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ellison_onizuka/32/314780_2.png) [@Ellison\_Onizuka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ellison_Onizuka)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1379 "2018-10-08T02:17:18Z")
Wardecs appear to be very divisive. I see some good arguments from both sides but the worst arguments tend to be from the people that don’t see the other side. I don’t care either way but I think that wardecs can be a good thing since eve is a pvp game. But on the other hand a guy that creates a corp so he can launch a high sec structure to call home then sees his badger get blown up by everything as he tries to haul fuel to his new house may not think its as good. And the people that killed the badger weren’t looking for a fight they were looking for a killmark, which is also fine. I also keep reading about how there are abandoned structures all over high sec and they are right. Maybe they should make it to where anyone can attack a citadel that has been in low power for more than 24 hours. I do feel there should be some type of wardec mechanic for high sec but it doesn’t sound as if this on is very good. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1380 "2018-10-08T02:35:13Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/36): > > Ah, so now retention after wardecs doesn’t matter because they aren’t proper EVE players anyway? Who said that? If i join WoW but quit because it lacks sandbox pvp does that mean WoW has retention problems and should change? If that means I’m not a ‘proper wow player’ then so be it. But the truth is it’s a meaningless label. What matters is player retention and the cost of getting it. And yes it is important whether these players will stick around when faced with NORMAL eve gameplay. We shouldn’t sink a ton of dev time into holding onto players quitting for reason A) when they will quit for reason B) a week after ‘fixing’ reason A). And this goes double when other **long term** players engage in game play A) and could be lost when we ‘fix’ it. Which is exactly what happened after 2012… One in the hand is worth two in the bush. > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/36): > > Not really, this one is already much better because just from their phrasing they are at least looking in the right direction, looking at activity levels of wardecced players before and after wardecs, rather than picking two arbitrary time frames for two specific events then ignoring anything outside of that. I’m not saying these stats are gospel but they are far more likely to be reflecting a more accurate picture. This is what is known as: talkin out your arse. We don’t know anything about the data. Not how it was gathered, nor what it actually was. When they looked at the data after the wardec was over don’t you think they picked an arbitrary time period? Are you that stupid? All we know is the data surprised some null boys. But as i keep saying, it has zero base line. It doesn’t look at how many players quit without even being decced. > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/36): > > They show that people who are wardecced play less after the wardecs. That’s a pretty clear sign that forced highsec PvP is bad for retention, which anyone with an ounce of game design experience can tell you. PvP is great, but it’s always a negative when you take highly experienced players and allow them control over the PvP engagements of newer ones. Is your interpretation of the data, which you have not seen nor understood how it was gathered. At best you can say the current iteration of wardecs may be causing retention issues. We don’t know that the reason people stop playing is that there is no way to take the fight to aggressors, or there is no victory conditions, or that wardecs aren’t restricted by location. Or even if it’s because we call them wardecs. Retention might be higher if we called them ‘super happy fun-times’ instead. The data tells us that the current situation looks bad for retention. But the current situation has MANY variables. Even the obvious and simplest ones are far more than ‘oh this must mean all hi-sec pvp is bad’. Especially when it’s been previously shown not to be. > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/36): > > In what way? Occasional dishonesty for benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Akmaund\_Askiras](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/akmaund_askiras/32/135732_2.png) [@Akmaund\_Askiras](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Akmaund_Askiras)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1381 "2018-10-08T02:59:26Z")
this is worth reading because? ---
**Author:** ![Terranid\_Meester](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/terranid_meester/32/425207_2.png) [@Terranid\_Meester](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Terranid_Meester)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1382 "2018-10-08T03:07:28Z")
> [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/133): > > That doesn’t mean a thing though. I’ve worked with companies that have “BI analysts” who have been there for decades, and their company is struggling because their methods are wrong and providing incorrect results. Then why cite your own BI experience? I have no reason to believe that you are any different and that your methods are right and that you provide correct results. > [@Another lie spread by the haters](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/another-lie-spread-by-the-haters/111504/133): > > I’ve explained quite clearly why their analysis was wrong and how a potential analysis could be done, and you’ve commented on neither. I just needed to look at other peoples responses to why you are wrong. I don’t need to comment when others have more adequately explained it. But then again debating with people like you is generally a pointless exercise because you never want to be wrong, only right and anyone who can only ever be right can only ever be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1383 "2018-10-08T04:04:45Z")
**Removing wardecs from Highsec is the worst thing that can be done.** I am an industrialist, a manufacturer, and under wardec… To those wanting it removed… Get off your arse, get some friends, grab the batphone, hire mercs…etc etc. But do something instead of whine… in RL you wouldnt whine, you would do something, anything if you were under attack. In EvE its the same…if you arent willing to defend it you dont deserve it. And if you lose it…get off your asss and rebuild it, do something, play the freaking game dont hate on it. Experience in EvE is much more than SP, and you wont get it by avoiding PvP, no matter the flavor it comes in whether thats Market, mining, or firing the DAMMN GUNS. Now with that said, yes the wardec system does need some tweaks if not some serious revamping [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=67) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=69)