# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1427 "2018-10-08T11:17:14Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > this is not a conspiracy. Nothing wrong with having a vested self-interest. But it starts to stink when you deny it when its laid out clear as day for all to see. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1428 "2018-10-08T11:18:10Z")
> [@Steve\_Ronuken](#): > > Welcome to wardec holding corps, which have members jump around as they find targets. Yes, this is an issue now and will be an issue with what I suggested, but losing that ability to war dec someone that you have an in game conflict with is kinda meh to me. Rivalry and ego conflicts are often what makes it more fun and intense. And losing that is a bit sad in a way. What would be a solution to the corp jumping, PIRAT used that eject from ship change corp then get back in ship on me once to snag a Talos, and I used it to advise someone how to save their JF in a war dec by Vendetta. It is something that has to be looked at. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1429 "2018-10-08T11:20:46Z")
If Rivalry and Ego are involved, chances are you might qualify for the consensual part of Wardecs. The fun can still be there. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1430 "2018-10-08T11:21:14Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > > > Then why change it as you propose? > > For the casual players who are dropping the game at the sight of aggression. Player retention. What makes you think they are casual? NS alt Corps in HS will benefit far more than “casuals” in HS Corps, when the NS alt Civilian Corps can access their alt/mother Corp structures, but the casual HS Civilian Corps cant, and get muscled out of the market. In other words, NS can form alt HS Civilian Corps, and either recruit more, or destroy any structure that would work with legit HS “casual” Civilian Corps for access to them. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1431 "2018-10-08T11:22:47Z")
And what is to stop wardeccers scouting out what Citadels these NS alts are using and Wardec those? Seems like all the fun is still there, if you look for it. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1432 "2018-10-08T11:23:32Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > And what is to stop wardeccers scouting out what Citadels these NS alts are using and Wardec those? Why would HS Civilian Corps that are war averse do that? The Civilian Corp concept fails, due to Malcanis’ Law. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1433 "2018-10-08T11:24:45Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > If Rivalry and Ego are involved, chances are you might qualify for the consensual part of Wardecs. The fun can still be there. It is not always mutual… ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1434 "2018-10-08T11:24:57Z")
The wardeccers would…why would a Civilian corp care what NS entities are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1435 "2018-10-08T11:25:37Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > why would a Civilian corp care what NS entities are doing. Read my posts. This was explained. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1436 "2018-10-08T11:26:41Z")
It’s only “clear” because you are drinking the koolaid at this point. I have no null agenda. And any perceived benefit you believe this gives null… if it actually is to their benefit they already are doing this. The Civilian corp as we’ve put it forward is not going to give them anything they cant do now. And really they aren’t hiding this web of high sec structures in any alt corp. If they have any it’s up front like horde in perimeter. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1437 "2018-10-08T11:28:23Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > The Civilian corp as we’ve put it forward is not going to give them anything they cant do now. And Then why do it. Lets apply Malcanis’ Law to the Civilian Corp. Whom will it benefit more? The larger, rich established established Corps, or new, casual, poor and weak Corps? ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1438 "2018-10-08T11:28:42Z")
It doesn’t matter, NS alts are already miles ahead, when you can multibox Rorq mine a moon in an hour for 30 bill as opposed to the 1 HS miner solo mining a belt for 9 mill an hour. I don’t think we are trying to balance NS and HS here, are we? ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:31am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1439 "2018-10-08T11:31:10Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > I don’t think we are trying to balance NS and HS here, are we? What prevents NS entities setting up unwardeccable HS Civilian Corps that can use their alt corps structures, from forcing out “legit” HS Civilian Corp, as the NS alt Civilian Corps provide better access and lower rates of cost? How can a legit HS “Civilian Corp” compete with a NS based alt “Civilian Corp” that has access to untold structures at excellent low rates? Nobody will even be able to wardec that NS based alt Civilian Corp, cos its unwardeccable. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1440 "2018-10-08T11:35:49Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > What prevents NS entities setting up unwardeccable HS Civilian Corps that can use their alt corps structures, from forcing out “legit” HS Civilian Corp, as the NS alt Civilian Corps provide better access and lower rates of cost? Blow up the Citadel they are using. They drop another, blow that up too, endless fun. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > How can a legit HS “Civilian Corp” compete with a NS based alt “Civilian Corp” that has access to untold structures at excellent low rates? Why do you think Civilian Corps want to compete with large NS entities, they just want to play the game. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1441 "2018-10-08T11:36:59Z")
The old rich corps can already do everything. There is nothing they can abuse this idea with. They already have a shared identity, they get no other benefits from this they dont already have. The point of this idea is literally to allow people to create a shared identity without being wardecced by someone bored and looking for easy kills. And none of your theories on how it “could be abused” hold water because those abuses already exist at present. The only thing that doesn’t exist is the easy shared identity. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1442 "2018-10-08T11:37:18Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Blow up the Citadel they are using. We already have established these people dont PvP. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Why do you think Civilian Corps want to compete with large NS entities, they just want to play the game. They cant compete if NS can form unwardeccable Civilian Corps in HS. They also cant compete economically, as they dont have access to structures that give them low rates. Why would they stay in a legit HS Civilian Corp, when they can instead join the NS based alt Civilian Corp with huge access to structures, excellent rates, and defense via proxy from the NS entities combat wing. Thats what I’m saying. Think. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1443 "2018-10-08T11:47:19Z")
Civilian Corps wouldn’t be the ones blowing it up anyway because A: they cant wardec other corps. B: that’s not what they want from the game, yet. The fun is for the others who do want combat, they are free to take down these Alt Citadels if they so please, through wardecs. Again, what is better economically, logging off and not playing for weeks, maybe not returning, or paying a few more Isk on Citadel services but continuing on playing to your hearts content. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1444 "2018-10-08T11:48:29Z")
/facepalm… Do you know Malcanis’ Law? ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1445 "2018-10-08T11:52:19Z")
Yeah, but this is about retaining players due to wardecs. NS can already do what you are trumpeting from NPC corps. They gain no more than they do already, this just allows others to play and keep playing. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2018, 11:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1446 "2018-10-08T11:56:50Z")
Do you know that law doesn’t apply to every single idea… Apparently not. You are just throwing around words trying to make something stick now. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=70) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=72)