# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakura_hoshizora/32/207431_2.png) [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakura_Hoshizora)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1819 "2018-10-09T11:01:24Z")
Allow social corps to only access NPC stations? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1820 "2018-10-09T11:11:16Z")
Except they could already do that entire myth you just posted right now. They already take all their new players directly into their main corps. They already could control the pipelines. So, your myth simply isn’t going to happen, it’s not some dire consequence of social corps, because they already could do this entire story you have posted. And they haven’t done it so far, meaning it won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Black\_Pedro](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/black_pedro/32/257285_2.png) [@Black\_Pedro](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Black_Pedro)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1821 "2018-10-09T11:16:01Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > This is what will happen, should Social Corps be introduced as people have described it here. > NOT to do the above, would be remiss by NS Player Corp leadership. > The above is smart, and utterly clear as how to exploit the new Social Corp system. All of this is possible using alts in the NPC corp. That is the base of Red Frog’s whole operation. And with access lists, giving a bunch of NPC corp alts access to alliance infrastructure is already easy. You don’t need a social corp to do so nor do you need one to attack highsec groups or structures right now. This is a tiny change, that maybe, if you squint really hard, might make abusing the NPC corp protections slightly easier for some groups than it is now. But the payoff is that the thousands of players that want to be in a corp but don’t want to fight in wars will have a home and don’t have to leave the group or stop logging in. You can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, but in this case, you can actually make the omelette with just inflicting a tiny, barely noticeable crack on a single egg. Nothing much will change at all for nullsec logistics nor will it enable nullsec to do anything they can’t already against existing highsec corps. If anything, highsec corps will have a new tool to evade their power. However, I did bookmark your post so if we do get something like a social corp, we can come back later and see if any of your dire predictions came true. You are yelling at clouds. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1822 "2018-10-09T11:18:50Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > This is a tiny change, that maybe, if you squint really hard, might make abusing the NPC corp protections slightly easier for some groups than it is now. I’m pretty sure if the null groups did what Onzo is saying it actually gets harder for them, because you can target ganking much easier at them, even if you can’t wardec them. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1823 "2018-10-09T11:20:00Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > Nothing much will change at all for nullsec logistics nor will it enable nullsec to do anything they can’t already against existing highsec corps. If anything, highsec corps will have a new tool to evade their power. Wrong. The implementation of Social Corps will be exploited by NS Corps, to obliterate HS Corps as I explained in detail above. Malcanis’ Law is real and prominent on this. Inversely, as you claim this is already possible through NPC Corps (which is false, since the Social Corp is not identical to an NPC Corp, and is distinct in many ways that enable the above), that makes the change pointless by your own argument. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1824 "2018-10-09T11:27:03Z")
> [@Jenn\_aSide](#): > > What do their political leanings have to do with your responsibilities? > > We get it, you don’t care for libertarians, a better representative would keep that too himself, especially seeing as we are talking about a video game here. I’m aware that this doesn’t matter to anyone at all, but for what it’s worth I won’t be voting for you again Again, what makes you think I don’t care for them? You’re pac,i gotta a lot of assumptions into a single joke I made after spending multiple posts engaging with him. I’m sorry this is enough for you not voting for me again. I would like to think that my responsiveness, willingness to engage the community, and success in getting things done would trump a joke you didn’t care for, but I understand that’s not how these things work. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1825 "2018-10-09T11:29:07Z")
> [@Black\_Pedro](#): > > You are yelling at clouds. Lets say you are CEO of an NS Corp with 1000+ members, with countless alts in HS, in either NPC Corps or Player Corps with structures. **What would you do, if Social Corps as you outlined are implemented?** _List it as I did._ PS: You would do exactly what I would and listed, because its smart and exploits the change to the maximum, which you would be remiss not to do as CEO. The Social Corp system, would lead only to the obliteration of legit, native HS Social AND Player Corps, as it means NS Corps can set up subsidiaries there as Social, alongside Player Corps, to wipe them out, as I described in my 10 point plan above. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1826 "2018-10-09T11:34:52Z")
Just to make things clear. @Faylee_Freir can easily be described as the “WarDec Project” CSM candidate. Don’t expect from her anything other than the same tired old points that have been used by wardeccers to make sure a War Structure solution never happens. Now, that this is cleared out. **Soft Targets.** For those who have not been in the know, I spent several articles and threads discussing that very topic at length, _before the CSM Summit_: “[http://thedantelionplan.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-dantelion-plan-failing-of-high-sec.html](http://thedantelionplan.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-dantelion-plan-failing-of-high-sec.html)” “[http://thedantelionplan.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-dantelion-plan-war-in-high-sec-of.html](http://thedantelionplan.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-dantelion-plan-war-in-high-sec-of.html)” “[WarDec, War Room: Suggestions for the Wardec Project](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/wardec-war-room-suggestions-for-the-wardec-project/82059)” More importantly, what I tried to do is discuss ways to make both High-Sec and Wars more engaging. I tried a design workshop for the idea of Diplomatic Resorts, targets in High-Sec that would be valuable enough to start wars. Now what I want to make people pay special attention to, is the idea of **Soft Targets**. Whatever is done with Wardecs, you need to encourage **everyone** involved in one to **undock**. Having targets that the defenders can go after _easily_ and that reward them for doing so, is a way to do that, and in my opinion is tantamount to solving the dread people feel about Wars. One way I have thought up to do this could be through hacking beacons that would upon destruction would reactivate CONCORD for the defenders. But this is just one way, and I hope people can come up with better ones. Whatever happens in the discussion around Wars, _you have to find ways to encourage people to undock during one_. That simple. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1827 "2018-10-09T11:36:51Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > Just to make things clear. @Faylee_Freir can easily be described as the “WarDec Project” CSM candidate. Wat? Did you not read how badly he failed repeatedly here on this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1828 "2018-10-09T11:40:54Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > You aren’t going to magically make carebears killers with some neat system that incentivizes them to not log off and stay logged off. There are a few issues that need to be addressed here: > > - You need to get more pvpers in highsec so that they will be the risk to each other. > - Some of the loopholed and convoluted mechanics that turn people away from highsec pvp need to go or need balancing You magically make players do things that they may not be predisposed to do by making it worth their time to try it and do it. You’ll get plenty of people back to highsec PvP if it’s worth the money and the time to play up there. That’s the point. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > There honestly are highsec groups that want to fight each other but the mechanics at our disposal and the meta is created a dog chasing its tail while it’s afraid of its shadow type situation. There is nothing in the current system that prevents two highsec groups from fighting each other. > [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > Edit: And are you telling me that I’m not risking anything when I undock in a 15b Marshal to go kill things? You just have to catch me is all. The risk is there friendo. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. When you take a 15b Marshall to kill a corp of guys who mostly mine, there’s no risk. You’ve lost 5 ships this entire year according to your killboard and are claiming there’s risk? You’ve lost 5 ships worth more than 1 bil isk in five years and only 2 of those were losses in an active war. That’s almost zero risk. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1829 "2018-10-09T11:49:32Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > That’s almost zero risk. That small minority you referenced as causing this problem? Faylee is core to that, as are the others trolling you. They are incredibly vocal, and caustic. Be warned, they will come at you from all angles on this to protect their advantage, regardless of its implications for the game overall. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1830 "2018-10-09T11:50:21Z")
> [@Faylee\_Freir](#): > > > Such as? > > I refuse to elaborate of specific mechanics that are able to be abused in a cancerous way. If elected to CSM I would totally discuss these mechanics in a private setting and explain how they hinder natural pvp. I sincerely hope that this issue has been resolved before the next CSM. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 11:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1831 "2018-10-09T11:54:03Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I sincerely hope that this issue has been resolved before the next CSM. Stage it out, in sequence. Doesnt have to fixed all at once, that takes too long, and leads to more problems the more is “fixed” at once. I stress to you, CSM and CCP to remember that staging fixes over an extended period is a real option, instead of trying to fix it all at once. Stick a finger at least in the dam as soon as possible, rather than sitting around it in committee watching the leak of players out of EVE. It can be reinforced later. ---
**Author:** ![Dracvlad](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dracvlad/32/444126_2.png) [@Dracvlad](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dracvlad)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1832 "2018-10-09T12:30:33Z")
A good person to speak to would be @Lucas_Kell he really gets what the issues are in terms of hisec. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1833 "2018-10-09T12:31:55Z")
> [@Dracvlad](#): > > A good person to speak to would be @Lucas_Kell he really gets what the issues are in terms of hisec. I like Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1834 "2018-10-09T12:34:59Z")
You plan fails at step two, as social corps should not be allowed to have more then for example 10 players in it. Social cops will only work if they are restricted enough. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1835 "2018-10-09T12:35:53Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > You plan fails at step two, as social corps should not be allowed to have more then for example 10 players in it. Social cops will only work if they are restricted enough. None of the persons posting here have ever mentioned a max member limit for a Social Corp. Nor will that matter, as I stated above, an NS Mother Corp can still just form multiple Social Corps, all of whom are given access and good rates at their HS Player alt Corp structures., leading to the same result I detailed above. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1836 "2018-10-09T12:38:20Z")
I have. 😉 And try to think in solutions, not problems. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1837 "2018-10-09T12:39:56Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > I have > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Nor will that matter, as I stated above, an NS Mother Corp can still just form multiple Social Corps, all of whom are given access and good rates at their HS Player alt Corp structures., leading to the same result I detailed above. They will just form multiple unwardeccable Social Corps with that member restriction, and the rest I detailed above, The Social Corp idea is a no go. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1838 "2018-10-09T12:42:23Z")
No they wont. People are lazy by default. If you have a 1000 man alliance and 100 alts, you need to create 10 corps to handle this. Most people will go for lazy options and just take the risk of getting shot over the administration you need to do to keep track of alts (corps). And if it’s only 10 alts, people are already using NPC for that. Not saying the solution is 100% perfect, but sometimes you need to accept a 80% solution. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=89) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=91)