# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 91
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1839 "2018-10-09T12:43:36Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > The Social Corp idea is a no go. Repeating the same phrase 500 times does not make it true. Social corps are not going to enable null to do any of this. Because if they did, they could & would already be doing this. All those members you talk about are either already in the main corp, or are better off in an NPC corp with individual access than in a social corp. There is literally zero advantage for null to do this complicated social corp scenario you are trying to spin as believable. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1840 "2018-10-09T12:43:50Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > If you have a 1000 man alliance and 100 alts, you need to create 10 corps to handle this. That is no significant effort at all, and still leads to what I detailed above. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1841 "2018-10-09T12:48:20Z")
> [@BIade\_Runner](#): > > Dear EVE player, you keep projecting your traumatizing childhood experience into all aspects of life No, I don’t, but after reading your response am I wondering if you aren’t just trying to make this game more into your own life experience. It’s however just a game and not a replacement for your life. ---
**Author:** ![Tora\_Bushido](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tora_bushido/32/382053_2.png) [@Tora\_Bushido](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tora_Bushido)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1842 "2018-10-09T12:50:52Z")
I just told you there was. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1843 "2018-10-09T12:55:01Z")
> [@Tora\_Bushido](#): > > I just told you there was. 😉 **Did you read what I told you earlier?** 🙂 On the Social or Civilian Corp suggestion, this is how it will play out. Lets say I’m CEO of a NS Corp with 1000+members, many of whom have alts in HS: 1. I will create an un-wardeccable HS Social Corp subsidiary, with leadership of my choice. 2. That leadership will only accept HS alts of my NS Corp or Alliances members. 3. I will instruct all HS player alt Corps to open access to this Social Corp, and give them favorable rates to their structures. 4. I will instruct all Corp members, whether in Mother Corp, or in Social or Player Corp in HS on mains or alts, to trade and operate only in our subsidiaries structures. 5. I will instruct, fund and subsidize all HS based combat capable alts in our HS subsidiary Player Corps to wardec and explode all competing structures and ships by other HS entities, to muscle them out. 6. I will tell Red Frog and other HS transport Corps to piss off, by handling all our logistics and material transport and material acquisition through our own Player Corp structures and unwardeccable Social Corp network via internal contracts. 7. I will encourage the leadership and recruiters of my NS based HS Social Corp to incentivize all members of NPC or small HS Player Corps to join our Social Corp instead, so we can get their materials/products sold in our structures, and reduce HS competition on those commodities. 8. In about 6-12 months, I will completely control our pipeline to HS markets from NS and back, and will have forced out any small HS Player Corps as either insignificant, or their structures and ships destroyed. 9. Join our Social Corp, with access to our structures with good rates, or our alt Player Corp or Suicide Ganking military arm will crush your Player Corp structure and your ships, and you can log off and never return. 10. Eventually, once competition along pipeline and in places of interests has been eradicated, we can start recruiting the Social Corp players into our Player Corp subsidiaries, or the mother Corp back in NS. This is what will happen, should Social Corps be introduced as people have described it here. NOT to do the above, would be remiss by NS Player Corp leadership. The above is smart, and utterly clear as how to exploit the new Social Corp system. Malcanis’ Law is invoked here. A Social Corp system will utterly obliterate new and weak HS Player AND Social Corps, because it allows for the NS big Corps to infiltrate, strong arm and obliterate them. ---
**Author:** ![Sade\_Musana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sade_musana/32/93959_2.png) [@Sade\_Musana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sade_Musana)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1844 "2018-10-09T12:56:44Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will create an un-wardeccable HS Social Corp subsidiary, with leadership of my choice. Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > That leadership will only accept HS alts of my NS Corp or Alliances members. Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will instruct all HS player alt Corps to open access to this Social Corp, and give them favorable rates to their structures. Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will instruct all Corp members, whether in Mother Corp, or in Social or Player Corp in HS on mains or alts, to trade and operate only in our subsidiaries structures. You don’t think this already happens? > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will instruct, fund and subsidize all HS based combat capable alts in our HS subsidiary Player Corps to wardec and explode all competing structures and ships by other HS entities, to muscle them out. No different than it is now. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will tell Red Frog and other HS transport Corps to piss off, by handling all our logistics and material transport and material acquisition through our own Player Corp structures and unwardeccable Social Corp network via internal contracts. Am I understanding this correctly, you think Hi-Sec hauling will now be more profitable than Rorq mining or krabbing in Null Sec? Also, Can already be done by Corp hopping/NPC corp any time a wardec is issued. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > I will encourage the leadership and recruiters of my NS based HS Social Corp to incentivize all members of NPC or small HS Player Corps to join our Social Corp instead, so we can get their materials/products sold in our structures, and reduce HS competition on those commodities. No different than it is now. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > In about 6-12 months, I will completely control our pipeline to HS markets from NS and back, and will have forced out any small HS Player Corps as either insignificant, or their structures and ships destroyed. No different than it is now. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Join our Social Corp, with access to our structures with good rates, or our alt Player Corp or Suicide Ganking military arm will crush your Player Corp structure and your ships, and you can log off and never return. No different than it is now. > [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Eventually, once competition along pipeline and in places of interests has been eradicated, we can start recruiting the Social Corp players into our Player Corp subsidiaries, or the mother Corp back in NS. No different than it is now. I haven’t seen one detriment to Social Corps in this listing that isn’t or can’t happen currently. Hi-Sec will never be as lucrative as Null Sec. What is your motive here? 10 year vet Hi-Sec multi-boxer miner, worried you can’t push out small corps from mining belts by issuing 1 man wardecs on them, while all your alt miners hide in NPC corps? Just curious the real reason behind this. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1845 "2018-10-09T13:02:40Z")
Tinfoil stocks and survival bunkers obviously, because that’s how crazy that theory is. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1846 "2018-10-09T13:03:10Z")
Please, if you think you can do all this, then why shouldn’t you? You did however get a few things wrong and don’t have actually a clue about the business in high-sec. So I would really like to see you try, knowing how dumb you’ll look when you realised you’ve failed. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1847 "2018-10-09T13:03:36Z")
> [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. You dont have to Corp hop put of a Social Corp, cos it cant be wardecced. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. Will not be necessary from a Social Corp, as it cant be wardecced. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Can already be done by Corp hopping any time a wardec is issued. Again, no need to Corp hop, cos you are in an unwardeccable Social Corp. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > You don’t think this already happens? Not like it would in Social Corps as they have been described here, which is basically just a Player Corp that cant place a structure. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > No different than it is now. Very different than now. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > Am I understanding this correctly, you think Hi-Sec hauling will now be more profitable Social Corps can handle all hauling without wardecs, and no need to outsource. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > No different than it is now. Very different than now, or why change it. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > No different than it is now. See above. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > No different than it is now. See above x2. > [@Sade\_Musana](#): > > I haven’t seen one detriment to Social Corps in this listing that isn’t or can’t happen currently. > Hi-Sec will never be as lucrative as Null Sec. Because you arent reading accurately, have an overt agenda, and are trolling/spamming. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1848 "2018-10-09T13:07:00Z")
Notice the NS based trolls here, whom have been trying to push Social Corps, because they know how that will empower them. It must never be allowed to happen, or HS will become the backyard of NS Corps, overnight, and within 6-12 months, it will be pointless ti form an HS Player or Social Corp, as you will be noncompetitive and or wrecked within days. They will troll this and any other thread to death, with no remorse, to keep this fact from being noticed. Watch it happen below. PS: Lol, just watched them swap alts. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1849 "2018-10-09T13:11:28Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > Notice the NS based trolls here, whom have been trying to push Social Corps, because they know how that will empower them. I do my business in high-sec, mind you. You’re just paranoid as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1850 "2018-10-09T13:12:38Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > It must never be allowed to happen, or HS will become the backyard of NS Corps, overnight, and within 6-12 months, it will be pointless ti form an HS Player or Social Corp, as you will be noncompetitive and or wrecked within days. Couldn’t this work if the social corps were treated the same way as NPC corps, capped at a maximum of 100 characters, not allowed to own structures, can’t be added to ACL lists or something along those lines? Is there no way to fit these out so they can’t be abused? ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1851 "2018-10-09T13:14:50Z")
They dont even need a member cap Brisc. The reality is this abuse Onzo is talking about is a myth. Null would have done it already if it was practical to do so. They already have all the tools right now. Social corps would actually make it harder for null if they used them. Not easier. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1852 "2018-10-09T13:16:42Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > capped at a maximum of 100 characters Wait, why would we cap their numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1853 "2018-10-09T13:18:04Z")
> [@Daichi\_Yamato](#): > > Wait, why would we cap their numbers? To provide an incentive to keep regular corps viable. You don’t want the social corps to be so good that nobody makes a traditional corp again. If they can do everything traditional corps can do without some limitations, then they become the norm and not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1854 "2018-10-09T13:19:16Z")
Npc tax rate and no structures are already pretty big drawbacks. Spectre fleet for example would be a great social group example that could base as a social corp who would be harmed by a 100 member cap. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1855 "2018-10-09T13:20:08Z")
Only to add to this, so does Red Frog move their cargo with pilots in NPC corps. He thinks he could compete with them just like that. I’d love to see him try. ---
**Author:** ![Proteus\_Onzo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/proteus_onzo/32/100121_2.png) [@Proteus\_Onzo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Proteus_Onzo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1856 "2018-10-09T13:23:02Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Couldn’t this work if the social corps were treated the same way as NPC corps To explain and elaborate, answer this list of concerns regarding a Social Corp consider and think upon these questions on it: 1. How is the leadership/membership of a Social Corp structured? 2. How much will it cost to setup? 3. Are there any member restrictions? 4. Can Social Corps join Alliances? 5. Can you be kicked out of a Social Corp, and by whom? 6. Whom admits new members? 7. Is there a Social Corp Tax, and who sets it, and whom is it paid to? 8. Does the Social Corp have a HQ and can it share assets in Corp Hangars? 9. How will the Social Corp transition into a Player Corp? 10. Can the Social Corp be given access/preferential treatment at Player Corp structures? The presenters of these ideas have stated, in contradiction, that: A) Its a Player Corp without a structure. B) Its an NPC Corp with no Player Corp functions. Both are objectively false, as they have presented them. They are trying to hide that it would basically be a Corp format that has all the benefits NS can use to obliterate both HS Player AND Social Corps. Malcanis’ Law applies, and the spin they are trying to put on this, is ■■■■■■■ disgusting. Member restriction on Social Corps is irrelevant, as I explained in aprevious post on how NS powers will use this to obliterate any HS based competition, either as Player or Social Corp. They can just form 10 member Social Corps, and sign them all to alt structures, and still do everything I desceibed I would do as as CEO of a 1000+ NS Corp, above. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1857 "2018-10-09T13:25:26Z")
> [@Proteus\_Onzo](#): > > To explain and elaborate, answer this list of concerns regarding a Social Corp consider and think upon these questions on it: Sorry, you don’t get to ask questions. You’re not sound of mind. You are allowed however to contribute to the idea once you can think more clearly and constructively. ---
**Author:** ![Daichi\_Yamato](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daichi_yamato/32/252995_2.png) [@Daichi\_Yamato](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daichi_Yamato)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1858 "2018-10-09T13:25:35Z")
Oh god. We’re not thinking of giving social corps anything other than SOCIAL features right? They’re an npc corp in every way except: - leaders control membership - Choose a name and a logo - Killboard - Chat channel, calender and bullet in board Right? RIGHT? A member limit wouldn’t really stop much. They just create more corps. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=90) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=92)