# The CSM 13 Winter Summit Minutes are out **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** csm\ **Created:** [October 2, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726 "2018-10-02T20:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 98
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1981 "2018-10-09T17:27:05Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > The next step would be a more diffinative care that utalized all the available assets to stabilize and implement healing and recovery that STARTS the patient back on the road to health, as well as undoing any unintended damage done by the emergency treatment. This process takes time and careful reexamination of what is wrong and changing treatment based on the results. This would correspond to EVE’s devs taking the time to create and implement changes in the basic game mechanics and make initial tweaks in what they implement. The most healthy ideas I’ve seen for this was the introduction of more intel features so that players get more options on how they want to fight their wars. Road-side bandits are cool, but players do want to fight wars not just along trade routes or around market hubs. Many have blamed the removal of the player watchlist, as a tool for going after war targets, which is now missing. What it needs is for players to reduce the fog of war and not to be tapping in the dark too often. When players declare war then they also want the fights. We can already view the location of corp members on the map. Making the location of war targets visible on the map as well would greatly accelerate warfare and give leadership an overview of the situation at any time. Trade routes and market hubs would still remain places of interest, but it would also become much easier to fight wars over a much larger area. ---
**Author:** ![Annah\_Tsero](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/annah_tsero/32/96572_2.png) [@Annah\_Tsero](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Annah_Tsero)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1982 "2018-10-09T17:27:10Z")
> [@Toxic\_Yaken](#): > > Also I don’t even remember why you were banned, (unlike Salvos) I guess I’ll have to go slog through those logs. Something about spamming the same refuted ideas over and over whilst not listening to anyone’s opinion? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1983 "2018-10-09T17:27:31Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > Some players come into EVE and their first thought is they want to shoot something or someone. Yeah, I was one of those people. I went to low-sec for a reason. Seriously though, I think there is a case in making High-Sec the space for _groups_, for people who want to socialize and form a group before going into the great unknown. Those who want to shoot at things would be better served by other spaces. > [@Whitehound](#): > > In contrast to this is the idea of structures to enable war. Structures require players to plan ahead. From the construction or purchase, the transport and setup, to the defence of it all. Yeah, they ask for a group. They ask for socialization. Things High-Sec should encourage tbh. You can satisfy the Pistolero and Bandit profiles in other spaces. The reckless players. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1984 "2018-10-09T17:28:56Z")
> [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > If you put a higher cost and hard limit to the numbers attacking a smaller corp - (if you have 75% - 200% member numbers compared with the corp you are attacking) then the feeling of being helpless lessens. Well, let’s remember how this plays out. Corp A has 30 people. Corp B has 300. So Corp B sends 30 people into Corp C (their active attack group). Corp C declares war on Corp A. Every time Corp A tries to fight back, Corp B is there to provide 60 neutral logistics cruisers, making it impossible for Corp A to kill even a frigate. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1985 "2018-10-09T17:30:41Z")
That’s step 2 of treatment. We are at the “slap the clotting agent in, pack and wrap, establish an IV, and transport” stage. A better, more refined look at the issue DOES need to be done soon, but Let’s save the patient first. ---
**Author:** ![Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/sakura_hoshizora/32/207431_2.png) [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Sakura_Hoshizora)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1986 "2018-10-09T17:31:00Z")
That’s why neutral logi helping a pilote in a war should be insta concorded. ---
**Author:** ![Whitehound](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/whitehound/32/59604_2.png) [@Whitehound](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Whitehound)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1987 "2018-10-09T17:31:16Z")
> [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](#): > > You can satisfy the Pistolero and Bandit profiles in other spaces. The reckless players. But is this really the purpose of high-, low- and null-sec? I don’t think so. The higher security level of an area is only meant to protect the new players. Instead of saying that you went into low-sec to find your fights should you perhaps realise that the need for you to go there was already a bit of a problem. Rather should you have been able to find good fights within high-sec. So you ended up in low-sec where we now even find caps farming noobs these days. ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1988 "2018-10-09T17:31:39Z")
So make neutral logistics flag them as criminal Edit : Yes - Concorded would be better ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1989 "2018-10-09T17:31:51Z")
> [@Sakura\_Hoshizora](#): > > That’s why neutral logi helping a pilote in a war should be insta concorded. It’s definitely an issue that needs to be addressed before any attempts to say ‘this will even the sides’ can be made, yes. However… > [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > So make neutral logistics flag them as criminal This means that nobody can help the _smaller_ group, either. Nobody can jump in to save them (which they can, now). Also, a criminal flag in highsec _is_ CONCORDed. That’s what happens when you get one. Get a criminal flag in LS, jump through a gate into HS. **BOOM**. The criminal timer just doesn’t go away, but when you get it? CONCORD. And now let’s look at the expanded roster… Scouts: Corp B. Guys running haulers to move things to where the targets are: Corp B. Absolutely every role in the conflict that doesn’t need to activate a module on Corp A is in Corp B. and they’ll stay there, because manpower’s a huge benefit, far beyond ‘who is shooting?’ Heck, the FC and target-caller can even be in the neutral corp. He’s just marking targets, not shooting them. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1990 "2018-10-09T17:37:02Z")
> [@Whitehound](#): > > Instead of saying that you went into low-sec to find your fights should you perhaps realise that the need for you to go there was already a bit of a problem. Nope. The type of fights I was looking for was perfect for low-sec. I was looking for fast-paced, solo PvP, and I got just that with FW, matched so well that it made me stay in the game for at least a year. I was not with a bunch of friends, I was not looking to socialize (at first), _and for someone who need those things to stay in the game and become a long-term player, High-sec is the best place to do it_. And right now, it does not provide that. ---
**Author:** ![Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/dantelion_shinoni/32/383315_2.png) [@Dantelion\_Shinoni](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Dantelion_Shinoni)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1991 "2018-10-09T17:38:50Z")
To be Honest. The Best type of treatment I can see that is quick and will stop the bleeding is the introduction of Social Corps. It’s that **or straight out remove WarDecs** and introduce a betting system for setting and keeping a structure in a system. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1992 "2018-10-09T17:40:22Z")
Basically, the difficulty with coming up with a quick, easy solution here is that what you’re dealing with is a structural problem in a complex system. Structural problems in complex systems usually _don’t have_ simple solutions. They have ‘rebuild the structure of the system, and do it better’. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1993 "2018-10-09T17:41:28Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > nobody can help the _smaller_ group, either. Who would really? I heard from you earlier that people go for blobs because n+1 is always better than n. Making small big is a lot harder than making big even bigger when you consider that. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1994 "2018-10-09T17:42:40Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Making small big is a lot harder than making big even bigger when you consider that. It is. But there’s always the chance of good samaritans in EVE. Anti-pirate types who just like to help out. It’s not common, but I’m not sure that completely removing that is a good move, either. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1995 "2018-10-09T17:45:06Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > good samaritans in EVE Yes, alts of wardeccing corp members. Real story. ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1996 "2018-10-09T17:46:40Z")
I don’t think the loss of outside help for the smaller group will make as much difference as the loss of stealth logi from an organized attack group. Neutrals contributing damage OR reps in a fight that’s not theirs should be concorded (Reps to a fight that’s not yours feels a little bit like an exploit) Remember the CSM notes relate to how small hi-sec groups are not taking part because of the one side nature of the present wardec system - They may continue to log on and contribute if they are being attacked by a group closer to their size (without logi to throw the balance) ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1997 "2018-10-09T17:49:34Z")
> [@Iowa\_Banshee](#): > > Remember the CSM notes relate to how small hi-sec groups are not taking part because of the one side nature of the present wardec system - They may continue to log on and contribute if they are being attacked by a group closer to their size Well, without seeing the actual data and being able to parse it… I’m still more inclined to think the people who’re leaving are people who don’t want to be fighting in the first place. Doesn’t matter what the odds are, if they _don’t want to do it_. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1998 "2018-10-09T17:52:22Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, without seeing the actual data and being able to parse it… I’m still more inclined to think the people who’re leaving are people who don’t want to be fighting in the first place. Doesn’t matter what the odds are, if they _don’t want to do it_ . Even if they DO want to do it, nobody wants a suicide run. With no realistic way of winning, and the potential downside of getting decced again and again because you tried to fight back, why not just dock up and wait it out? There’s little upside. We need to create an upside. ---
**Author:** ![Iowa\_Banshee](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/iowa_banshee/32/218394_2.png) [@Iowa\_Banshee](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Iowa_Banshee)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/1999 "2018-10-09T17:56:04Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, without seeing the actual data and being able to parse it… I’m still more inclined to think the people who’re leaving are people who don’t want to be fighting in the first place. Doesn’t matter what the odds are, if they _don’t want to do it_ . Unfortunately this may be true - they may not want to fight. I’m hoping that leveling the playing field will remove the feeling of being totally stepped on thus making not logging on less of an option. Maybe wardecs will then fall into the same hi-sec carebear category as ganking in that “losses are the price of doing business”. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726/2000 "2018-10-09T17:58:20Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Even if they DO want to do it, nobody wants a suicide run. BTW, _can_ you tell us if the people we’re talking about have any record of PVP activity (or if any indications on way or the other were part of the data set that @CCP_Larrikin showed you)? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=97) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-csm-13-winter-summit-minutes-are-out/110726.md?page=99)