# The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457 "2020-12-22T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Jiv\_Jov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jiv_jov/32/250925_2.png) [@Jiv\_Jov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jiv_Jov)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/348 "2021-01-12T22:29:12Z")
[The described idea](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/346) was about CCP someday maybe changing their policy and players offering ISK for real life usd (on the official developer website), which currently is illegal under CCP policy. I believe it could bring in 10-100x times more real human players, everybody would be eager to make ISK, but it could only be a nice game experience if CCP could kill all automated bot ISK making in the game. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/349 "2021-01-12T22:35:39Z")
It wasn’t only the bots though. This is from a miner’s perspective. On the PvP side of things CCP completely flipped from supporting non-consensual PvP to endlessly nerfing it. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/a/4a03a442545b91958dbc086d9936a0c05216e028.png) You know what changes they made in '12 to kill the playerbase? “The 2012 summer expansion was announced with the name “Inferno” on February 22. Inferno brought a **complete overhaul of the war declaration** and factional warfare systems, addition of 17 new modules and 3D models for missile launchers and missiles along with a mercenary marketplace, unified inventory and graphical updates.” “Release date: December 4, 2012 Retribution brought a revamped bounty system, a new **“crimewatch”** system, added 4 new destroyer ships and a new mining frigate, re-balanced the frigate, cruiser and destroyer ship roles and improved enemy AI. The expansion also added a more fine tuned bounty hunting system for new Eden, featuring new wanted icons that overlaid on Character portraits, fleets could get paid for bounties and took of the restrictions of the Bounty office making them accessible any time.” and by '16 when the game as we knew it was all but completely dead, we had nerfed orcas, nerfed boosts, citadels instead of poses, Alpha Clones, and a whole mess of Capital Buffs. They started nerfing high sec (and null sec) PvP and bubblewrapping lazy PvEers. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/350 "2021-01-12T22:39:28Z")
> [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > offering ISK player sales for real life usd > [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > everybody would be eager to make ISK Why if you could just buy it? And wouldnt whales completely inflate the crap out of the market? ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/351 "2021-01-12T22:42:56Z")
Yes they would. It would be creating 1.8bil every time somebody bought ISK. We would basically be playing WoW in space at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/352 "2021-01-12T22:43:54Z")
Even WoWs economy isnt as broken as his suggestion would make it. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/353 "2021-01-12T22:44:35Z")
WoW’s economy is actually COMPLETELY busted. ---
**Author:** ![Jiv\_Jov](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jiv_jov/32/250925_2.png) [@Jiv\_Jov](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jiv_Jov)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/354 "2021-01-12T22:46:33Z")
I could imagine players would love it if they could sell their “content” on the CCP website. A CCP policy change, where CCP officially runs an auction house on the CCP website for assets owned by players…Where the players can sell their assets for real life money, if such a policy change is published on Reddit - The games server could be overrun by players. IMHO it would create the biggest player hype EvE has seen since its beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/355 "2021-01-12T22:47:23Z")
> [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > CCP officially runs an auction house on the CCP website for assets owned by players… Its called Contracts. > [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > Where the players can sell their assets for real life money, That would be RMT ---
**Author:** ![Tharvus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tharvus/32/246994_2.png) [@Tharvus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tharvus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/356 "2021-01-12T23:11:21Z")
> [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > In 2007 I worked in a UK games studio > [@Jiv\_Jov](#): > > allow ISK sales via USD on their CCP website These two statements don’t mix. ---
**Author:** ![Buoytender\_Bob](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/buoytender_bob/32/374377_2.png) [@Buoytender\_Bob](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Buoytender_Bob)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/357 "2021-01-12T23:21:45Z")
I’m trying to recall that far back; was Dec '12 when the combination of destroyer changes and blaster enhances helped create the rise and doctrine use of the gank Catalyst? I do remember that their use became the standard around that time. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/358 "2021-01-12T23:26:21Z")
Cats were already being used. The increase in suicide ganking was due to the decrease in PvP in every other facet of the game. High-sec and Null-sec were bubblewrapped and low sec was infested with cap ships. We literally had nothing else to do. ---
**Author:** ![Tharvus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tharvus/32/246994_2.png) [@Tharvus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tharvus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/359 "2021-01-12T23:41:26Z")
Making small focussed wardecs far more difficult, combined with other changes like Crimewatch made many smaller and more “opt-in” forms of high sec pvp VERY difficult. By doing so CCP forced those PVPers to take it to the next level. ---
**Author:** ![Cypherous](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cypherous/32/499883_2.png) [@Cypherous](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cypherous)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/360 "2021-01-13T00:37:29Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > You’re clearly thinking solely from the perspective of a person who sees PvP as a profit activity. That is, one who hunts other players for profit, usually done in high-sec so the ganker is free from random attack. Profit doesn’t have to mean money, farming explosions and chasing that adrenaline high from PvP is also “profit”, farming salt is another type of “profit” There are so many reasons to want to shoot someone in the face and making ISK isn’t always the end goal ---
**Author:** ![MB\_ThePhotographer](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mb_thephotographer/32/373722_2.png) [@MB\_ThePhotographer](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MB_ThePhotographer)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 1:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/361 "2021-01-13T01:01:29Z")
> [@Cypherous](#): > > Profit doesn’t have to mean money, farming explosions and chasing that adrenaline high from PvP is also “profit”, farming salt is another type of “profit” I like your thinking! ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Deveron](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/max_deveron/32/245870_2.png) [@Max\_Deveron](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Max_Deveron)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/362 "2021-01-13T01:20:45Z")
uhm yeah…the US IRS would love that idea including a few senators and reps if i recall correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Jenn\_aSide](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jenn_aside/32/384682_2.png) [@Jenn\_aSide](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jenn_aSide)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/363 "2021-01-13T02:24:50Z")
How about straight from the horse’s mouth? > **[EVE: The Second Genesis Interview - IGN](https://www.ign.com/articles/2003/02/26/eve-the-second-genesis-interview)** > > Iceland, the land of the hidden people. Also the land of the hidden game developers. There might not be many game developers in Iceland -- one to be precise: CCP -- but they certainly have some lofty ambitions. > > With a team of about 35 people, CCP is... From that interview: " **IGNPC: Why did you go with a primarily PvP structure?** **Reynir Hardarson:** Well, to begin with all multiplayergames from the dawn of civilization have been PvP. So for us to create a universe with thousands of people playing together against computer controlled evil would be plain madness and missing the whole point of multiplayer gaming. We wanted to create a game where player interaction is encouraged and rewarded on all levels. The true magic of the MMOGs comes from player interaction and player competition ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/364 "2021-01-13T03:24:33Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Sure, but what Destiny wrote is correct, even though how we as players interact with the game is (and always has been), different. I didn’t say Destiny’s post was incorrect (well, at least not that specific post). I said that I could tell the difference between what marketing blurbs, and dev interviews, and flashy videos say, and what the **actual game is designed to encourage**. I’ll also state that it’s not unusual for game developers to not even understand themselves what it is their games are encouraging and discouraging. All the concept statements in the world won’t change what your game rewards and punishes on a daily basis. The marketing is one thing, the reality of the interactions with the game mechanics is another. Destiny also makes the usual PvP mindset jump from “the game was designed with PvP as an important feature” (which is really all the marketing and dev blurbs state) to assuming that the game **was designed for the PvPers** : > [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > It was developed with PvP, in fact mostly power-driven, non-consensual PvP, in mind during that time. There was no question, and no ambiguity, with regard to for whom this game was intended. When you say “trying to change the game to what I think PvP should be like is (thankfully) doomed to failure”, can you articulate anything specific about the ‘way’ I’ve said to design PvP that you feel is so horrible? Because I’ve seen a lot of the PvP crowd in this thread jump to some really strange and quite unrelated conclusions, but I’ve yet to see one of them demonstrate they have the reading comprehension to understand what I’m **actually** talking about rather than what they _assume_ I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/365 "2021-01-13T03:29:31Z")
> [@hellokittyonline](#): > > Lol the funny thing is CCP has been specifically catering to risk averse high-sec PvE players for close to 10 years but it’s never enough for you guys. You honestly should all be playing a single player game. If you’re only here for the terrible PvE content then you are nothing but a leech. How about posting some factual evidence to back up your frivolous assertations. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/366 "2021-01-13T03:39:05Z")
> [@Buoytender\_Bob](#): > > I’m trying to recall that far back; was Dec '12 when the combination of destroyer changes and blaster enhances helped create the rise and doctrine use of the gank Catalyst? I do remember that their use became the standard around that time. If I recall correctly the buffing of destroyers, hybrid turrets and some T2 ammos happened end of 2011, early 2012. It took some time for the PvPers to get chased out of _real_ PvP areas (low and null) by the advancing meta of larger ships and more organized defenders. It was 2012 that most of the PvP “OMG those were the glory days!” are referring to, as they fled from real PvP where they were at risk, and focused on hunting easy/weak/profitable targets in high sec because that was much safer. > [@hellokittyonline](#): > > The increase in suicide ganking was due to the decrease in PvP in every other facet of the game. High-sec and Null-sec were bubblewrapped and low sec was infested with cap ships. We literally had nothing else to do. So yeah, what hellokitty is really saying here is: “when _actual_ PvP got too tough and scary for us, and alliances got too big and organized for us, and we couldn’t find easy wins any more, we all ran to high sec for safe easy kills. But then they, OMG, they put _suspect timers_ on us so that _anybody_ could shoot at us and that was the end of PvP. We’re here for easy kills, not to get _shot_ at.” I mean, seriously, Crimewatch led to EVE’s best and busiest year ever, until suicide ganking became a commoditized business. And all Crimewatch did was stick some extra bounties and flags on them, so heck knows why they’re all still crying about that (and the loss of jetcans) almost 10 years later… ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2021, 4:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/367 "2021-01-13T04:20:11Z")
_facepalm_ No, what I’m saying is the content slowed waaaaay down. Literally and figuratively. Tidi sucks. Capital ships suck. Suicide ganking is fun every now and then but also sucks compared to the more engaging content we used to have. Small gang content is where it’s at. Suspect baiting/Can flipping used to be super fun. We could escalate with Orcas and logis. Small gang fights galore. Now? Weapons timers and Orca nerfs keep us from being able to engage in as much content as before. It’s not even about adaptability. We’ve adapted [https://zkillboard.com/kill/84073843/](https://zkillboard.com/kill/84073843/) I can assure you. It’s simply that the changed mechanics have removed our ability to play together or support each other. The “gangs” can’t even engage each other anymore because the guy with the suspect flag always loses. FW/Low Sec PvP used to be a blast. You didn’t even have to be in FW to fly to the hotspots and get a fight. CCP allowed capital ships in low sec and now its a wasteland. Meanwhile in null sec everyone is holding hands and making way too much money because, again, cap ships are too prevelant. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=19)