# The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457 "2020-12-22T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/41 "2020-12-22T19:44:08Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > Never let _anyone_ discourage you from trying something that looks ridiculous to anyone else, no matter how stupid it may seem. I agree completely I once made a gate camp breaking deacon fit that would just afterburner speed tank the typical gate camping setup, ended up killing a hurricane and loki with the help of those beautiful gate guns xD ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/42 "2020-12-22T19:48:20Z")
> [@hellokittyonline](#): > > If you would like for Eve online to have a chance of lasting even 5 more years you have GOT to stop crying for less PvP. Or, you know, you could try actually reading what I wrote rather that jump to the conclusion that any post that doesn’t start it with “destruckshun is gud!” is an anti-PvP post. Seeing as I consistently write that CCP needs to provide more reasons to PvP, more ways to engage with it, more interesting results from it, and make it less of a losing proposition for 80% of the player base - exactly in order to _increase_ the amount of player combat and player-initiated destruction in the game. Unfortunately those sorts of changes require talent and creativity and hard work. As opposed to CCP just sacrificing assets, adding in “kill you quick” NPCs, and nuking the production economy and calling it a day. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/43 "2020-12-22T19:52:50Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Seeing as I consistently write that CCP needs to provide more reasons to PvP, more ways to engage with it, more interesting results from it, and make it less of a losing proposition for 80% of the player base - exactly in order to _increase_ the amount of player combat and player-initiated destruction in the game. So you want CCP to kind of…force people to PvP, as opposed to them finding their own reasons for doing so? People are aren’t interested in PvP aren’t going to become magically interested in it just because CCP pulls some levers. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/44 "2020-12-22T19:52:57Z")
I made half a bill crushing up Structure mods that were for sale at less than their mineral value this afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Xuxe\_Xu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xuxe_xu/32/464660_2.png) [@Xuxe\_Xu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Xuxe_Xu)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/45 "2020-12-22T19:53:01Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Most people simply re-state their preferences and opinions and the mindset they’ve frozen into over years of opposing anyone who thinks differently than they do. ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/7/d/7d67ebb526680017e62fd77f94025a8c1701a634.gif) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/46 "2020-12-22T20:01:00Z")
There is a term for it thou called lures, something shiny enough to get people willing to put in the risk and that risk is where the conflict can initiate from. CCP don’t have direct control but they fuel the environment which nudges us in certain ways. ---
**Author:** ![Elenahina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elenahina/32/307923_2.png) [@Elenahina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elenahina)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/47 "2020-12-22T20:02:24Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > **ALL** PvP is done for profit. Not necessarily purely financial profit in the sense that you get loot, but _all_ PvP has some kind of underlying goal/player agenda behind it. I’m surprised at how many players, often even PvPers, don’t understand this. I really like this quote because I feel like it doesn’t get highlighted enough. Shooting you (unless you’re flying a freighter through nullsec full of plex or something similarly stupid) is actually the WORST way I have to make ISK. PvP isn’t just about driving destruction per se, it’s about gaining an advantage, be it more ISK for me, less ISK for you, or some other tactical advantage. I _might_ be shooting you just because it’s fun, but nine times out of ten, I’m shooting you for some other reason, too. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/48 "2020-12-22T20:02:57Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > There is a term for it thou called lures, something shiny enough to get people willing to put in the risk and that risk is where the conflict can initiate from. > > CCP don’t have direct control but they fuel the environment which nudges us in certain ways. Lures don’t work on worker drones. No matter what you dangle in front of their noses, they will still continue to scrape the bottom of the barrel instead of taking even a _modicum_ of risk. ---
**Author:** ![hellokittyonline](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/hellokittyonline/32/244672_2.png) [@hellokittyonline](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/hellokittyonline)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/49 "2020-12-22T20:03:03Z")
No CCP needs to stop catering to people who can’t handle losses. If fear of loss is what’s stopping you from PvP then you’re playing the wrong game. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/50 "2020-12-22T20:03:18Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Nov.2020 MER shows that **production** is heading steadily down, **mining** is heading down, and except for a few spikes when CCP introduces “cool new make it all explode!” surprises, **destruction** is heading down. These numbers have been heading down for over a year. Production is at two-thirds of what it was 2 years ago. **Trading** volumes are also down. This is not an economy spiralling out of control - this is an economy headed for recession. From the Nov MER, I get what you are saying for production and mining, but the trend for destruction over the last couple of years is flat: ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/2/b/2b7f87f207cce8fd5ba32f1ffebf3acf88d143d2.png) However, that is a measure of the value of destruction, which isn’t the only measure. What about numbers of engagements (we don’t have access to that number) or number of kills/losses (we do have access to trending this)? The CPI has also remained stable since about 2014, so it’s likely those numbers have also been fairly stable, but nothing in your analysis even looks at them. So it’s difficult to get at exactly what you are saying, since you seem to have made the same mistake you are leveling at others, by applying your own bias to reading the data (and assuming that value of destruction is a measure that individual players care about if they are interested in pvp). So overall it’s kind of ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯ Nothing about the economy seems particularly broken, but there’s also nothing wrong with destruction. It’s fun. Fun seems far more important than how much ISK is in my wallet. ---
**Author:** ![Elenahina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elenahina/32/307923_2.png) [@Elenahina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elenahina)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/51 "2020-12-22T20:04:50Z")
I dunno. People dumb enough to be happy scraping the bottom of the barrel are also the first ones to say “Oh! A piece of candy!” when you dangle something shiny in front of them. It’s just got to be shiny enough to actually attract their interest first. ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/52 "2020-12-22T20:06:07Z")
If they take no risk then they get no cake lol, CCP seems to be heading in this way which is great it will either force people to get over being risk adverse and learn to manage risk rather than avoid it, or those people will fold and be replaced by new people willing to learn. Although I’m still not sure why the hecate and jackdaw still exist in eve in their current state. Their huge power + 2 sec align goes against it quite a bit as the 2 biggest risk adverse ships in eve. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/53 "2020-12-22T20:06:54Z")
> [@Elenahina](#): > > I dunno. People dumb enough to be happy scraping the bottom of the barrel are also the first ones to say “Oh! A piece of candy!” when you dangle something shiny in front of them. > > It’s just got to be shiny enough to actually attract their interest first. Doesn’t match my experience in this game. I’ve pretended to be AFK in very expensive PvE ships (and even mining ships a few times) in front of war target carebears who outnumbered me 20:1, and they still didn’t even _try_ to bite. They were _that_ averse to the prospect of combat. ---
**Author:** ![Elenahina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elenahina/32/307923_2.png) [@Elenahina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elenahina)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/54 "2020-12-22T20:07:01Z")
How can they be worth less than their mineral value when minerals are free\*? \*Yes, I know minerals aren’t free. I’m just beating the dead horse for the fun of it. ---
**Author:** ![Elenahina](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elenahina/32/307923_2.png) [@Elenahina](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elenahina)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/55 "2020-12-22T20:10:38Z")
Well, some people just aren’t going to be tempted no matter what you do. You’re not wrong that there are people in the game so risk averse they will literally stop playing for a week to escape a wardec. Or make a new corp. ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/56 "2020-12-22T20:10:46Z")
> [@Destiny\_Corrupted](#): > > I’ve pretended to be AFK in very expensive PvE ships (and even mining ships a few times) in front of war target carebears who outnumbered me 20:1, and they still didn’t even _try_ to bite. They were _that_ averse to the prospect of combat. ![looksLike1GuyTryingtoGetSoloPvP](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/e/6e6979c10e2c67d1e8b9de27a0df13d822d4079e.jpeg) An Old pic but it supports your statement quite a bit, 1 guy trying to solo I sat watching and none of them left citadel range to fight the solo phantasm for over 30minutes. My guess is they where waiting for an fc to form up a fleet to counter the solo pvper, if this was 2009 you would have streams of players pouring out to get some action, man I miss those days. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/57 "2020-12-22T20:16:07Z")
> [@Elenahina](#): > > Well, some people just aren’t going to be tempted no matter what you do. That’s exactly my point. There’s nothing CCP can do to make these people (and there’s a _lot_ of them) change their mindset and seek out conflict. It doesn’t matter how big of a reward you offer them, they _still_ won’t do it. > [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > An Old pic but it supports your statement quite a bit, 1 guy trying to solo I sat watching and none of them left citadel range to fight the solo phantasm for over 30minutes. > > My guess is they where waiting for an fc to form up a fleet to counter the solo pvper, if this was 2009 you would have streams of players pouring out to get some action, man I miss those days. I have so many stories like that, I could write a book. Like this one time I took a Thorax to some null-sec farmer’s paradise, and an acquaintance was feeding me text from their intel channel. The “FC” was trying to put together a gang to “deal with” me, and wanted at least 40 people, and then started raging when he couldn’t get enough, logged off in anger, and they didn’t do anything. I shambled around for like an hour, and then left. That was the last time I _ever_ went to non-NPC null-sec. ---
**Author:** ![Rekindle](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rekindle/32/382332_2.png) [@Rekindle](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rekindle)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/58 "2020-12-22T20:16:13Z")
> [@Avatar\_Sky-on](#): > > sometimes ‘doing it wrong’ has advantages, as folks are not set up to expect certain combinations being replaced by other ideas. The problem is deeper. CCP has more and more interceded to make perfectly balanced everything. There are no rough spots or hidden gems in the forest…by design. ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/59 "2020-12-22T20:19:19Z")
There are a few still, only becuase they are not posted all over reddit xD ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/60 "2020-12-22T21:11:45Z")
Ive had an idea. Ill let you know if it works. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=4)