# The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457 "2020-12-22T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/61 "2020-12-22T22:29:37Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > The only consequence I read from your post is that amassing wealth without risk of losing is the problem. Avoiding loss and PvP should not allow you to get rich or keep your stuff. Risk vs. reward needs to be more polarized. A player’s appetite for risk is not a parameter within CCP’s control. It is not some variable they can change. Now in some cases players make mistakes or fail to understand certain aspects of the game and thus inadvertently take on more risk than they realize (e.g., is piling too much loot in your hauler). CCP can change the reward for certain actions. However, if you decrease the reward and players perceive a certain level of risk with that activity players where their tolerance for risk no longer justifies trying to acquire the reward they’ll simply stop and move on to something else. CCP can also change the risk attached to a given activity, but they cannot make players take on that risk. People react to changes in their environment. Failing to take this into account is a mistake that is all to common in most reasoning when it comes to various economic activities. So when discussing “risk vs. reward” keep in mind that the players willingness to take on risk _is largely fixed and not something CCP can control._ So upping the risk or lowering the reward will merely get you less of that activity. Not more. In a way the risk of an activity acts like a price, but one in which we are dealing with just the buy side - demand. So higher price =\> less, lower price =\> more. And CCP is not _increasing the rewards_ that I can see. They are, if anything, reducing them. And as far as I can see their desire is to have the economy be less productive. Which is strange in that the economy has been moving in that direction all along. Looking at the Nov. 2020 MER production has been on an overall downward trend for almost 3 years now. One reason that has been suggested is people just have lots of stuff. And as such just do not buy as much. Which is possible, but contra the OP destruction is a fairly stable process ranging between 1 - 1.5 trillion. And I think the thinking is that eventually destruction will whittle away at these stock piles. But again, people react to changes in their environment and that is true in game just as anywhere else. So, it is entirely possible that as losses become harder to replace people will put their assets at risk less and less all other things held constant. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/62 "2020-12-22T22:42:57Z")
They can utilize greed, combine high rewards with high PvP risk, like in the current event. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/63 "2020-12-22T22:43:35Z")
But they aren’t. Lowering the rewards isn’t going to get people to take on more risk. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/64 "2020-12-22T22:46:42Z")
In RL this is how it works though. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/65 "2020-12-22T22:47:21Z")
Sure, but CCP isn’t doing that. They are doing the opposite from what I can see. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/66 "2020-12-22T22:50:38Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > My guess is they where waiting for an fc to **form up** a fleet to counter the solo pvper bingo !!! thats the null sec way ![Captura de Tela 2020-12-22 às 20.19.23](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/b/6/b61c7ef8eadf3b4cbb77d90fa299491d8b7f1c55.png) me + 2 friends 3 cruisers … (one of the dudes had a stealth bomber alt but i was not aware) siting on a gate , they start to form , 3 ,5,9,11 20 minutes … nothing one has a bhaal … my crazy Russian friend said ,bhaal is primary , me ok… they blob us … we lost 200 mil in cruisers they lose a 1 bil bhaal 🤣 edit: some changes to correct inaccurate screenshot lol previusly i posted one fight before we had 2 😛 edit2: full kb no bs ![Captura de Tela 2020-12-22 às 20.22.10](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/5/0/503664e5352e62d7ad2b02dcdd1f8bbdcb114253.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/67 "2020-12-22T22:52:38Z")
I’m surprised you guys get fights from them lol. This is 8 of us trying to fight 30: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/d/3/d39d5997d9564c0ee323b72c974767ca7f96809b.jpeg "Brave fight for ESS with everything they have! Well, actually not") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D59dJwdFtpI) ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/68 "2020-12-22T23:05:34Z")
> [@Teckos\_Pech](#): > > A player’s appetite for risk is not a parameter within CCP’s control. It is not some variable they can change. They can change the features of the game to attract a different audience … … which means they are also capable of influencing this variable. They’ve already done that once, remember? They’re doing it again _right now_. What amazes me about it this time, is that they’re doing it at a rapid pace compared to the post-CrimeWatch 2.0 era. Does no one ever notice how people are looking at EVE and its players as if they’ve always been like the current crop? They haven’t! Before CCP attracted the post-CrimeWatch 2.0 crowd there was the pre-CrimeWatch 2.0 crowd. Just like they now attract a new “arena player” type of crowd … … with different preferences for the environment they’re playing in. They’ve also changed the environment to not, or less, attract the “farmer type” of crowd anymore … … which they’ve been aiming at all the way through the post-CrimeWatch 2.0 era right until the BlackOut. People talk about so many things, but not about who they’re trying to attract with the changes. It’s like everyone’s just looking at things as if the target demographic was still carebears who solely care about rewards … … while CCP made it clear that they’re aiming for people who prefer community-play and supporting each other. They do not wish for players to be self-sufficient/reliant anymore. Not sure which is the appropriate term, or if not actually both fit anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/69 "2020-12-22T23:06:48Z")
PvP is scary. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/70 "2020-12-23T00:04:42Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > great it will either force people to get over being risk adverse and learn to manage risk rather than avoid it, or those people will fold and be replaced by new people willing to learn. This is another one of those poorly informed opinions that I see a lot: “get rid of the people who aren’t playing the way we want, and they’ll be replaced by new people who will”. It doesn’t work that way. There is no “replace leaving players” mechanism. In fact, since players giving up on the game tend to badmouth it, and since published stats showing game activity is dropping tend to make players think the game is dying or broken, it works the exact opposite. CCP pushing players out of the game will **dis** courage player sign-ups, not bring in hordes of eager new players. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/71 "2020-12-23T00:10:20Z")
> [@Solstice\_Projekt](#): > > They can change the features of the game to attract a different audience … > … which means they are also capable of influencing this variable. Sure, but they need to keep in the mind the game they have. Farming _is_ important in that is how we have stuff in game. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/72 "2020-12-23T00:12:07Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > If they take no risk then they get no cake lol, CCP seems to be heading in this way which is great it will either force people to get over being risk adverse and learn to manage risk rather than avoid it, or those people will fold and be replaced by new people willing to learn. Risk averse means you manage your risk. You are either risk neutral, risk averse or risk seeking. Most people are risk averse. Risk seeking individuals tend to be rather self-destructive. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/73 "2020-12-23T00:28:21Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Nothing about the economy seems particularly broken, but there’s also nothing wrong with destruction. It’s fun. Yeah you’re right, my analysis is completely off and misses all the important details, like qauntifying “fun had”. The economy is out of control, and we need more destruction which will fix it all, and there are no downward trends here, no sir! ![EVE_Nov_2020_MER_TrendLines](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/6/f/6f717df591ca8c8b4fec62ae1d932e8264d1e7be.png) Everything there looking like CCP has a good handle on things and the game is headed in the right direction! (And just as an FYI, since my point is that the economy **isn’t** broken, I don’t really need to point out that the CPI has remained stable, because that simply supports my point. That’s what the bullet listed items do. I realize you PvP folks really have to struggle to make the case for “moar destrukshun!” but please at least try to stay on track with the discussion.) ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/74 "2020-12-23T00:30:29Z")
\>cherrypicking so hard you pick 3 different starting dates for each measurement ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/75 "2020-12-23T00:32:34Z")
Yes well last I checked, CCP’s new “destruction is good, poverty is better” initiatives aren’t 2 years old yet, but the economy certainly is. You guys can shout that everything is great and CCP is handling it just fine all you want, but the data is incredibly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/76 "2020-12-23T00:33:10Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > The economy is out of control, and we need more destruction which will fix it all, and there are no downward trends here, no sir! Did you even read what was written (even in the sentence you quoted, but also the rest of it)? Maybe try a second time. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/77 "2020-12-23T00:34:12Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I see a lot: “get rid of the people who aren’t playing the way we want, and they’ll be replaced by new people who will”. > > It doesn’t work that way. There is no “replace leaving players” mechanism. You realize this is EXACTLY why we have so many people whining and crying about the ecosystem changes? 2016-2019 were the BEST times to be a krab. Unlimited anomalies, super easy to multibox VNIs, Rorquals that could farm for hours on end. It made a lot of pvp pilots bored because you needed at least 50 people to post a threat against Rorquals since they had a panic button. Roaming was near impossible because bubbles in deadend pockets lasted 30 days instead of 2 days we have now, plus local intel for even renters allowed krabs to dock up. A bunch of them quit and more krabs replaced them. Now that CCP is actively looking to bring resource generation (ores and isk) back under control, these krabs who came in and bloated the community are screeching their heads off about it. Just because you happen to be on the side of people doing the replacing doesn’t mean the replacement isn’t happening. There’s been a huge shift in the community towards carebears and krabs since 2016 and onwards. ---
**Author:** ![Teckos\_Pech](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teckos_pech/32/375283_2.png) [@Teckos\_Pech](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teckos_Pech)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/78 "2020-12-23T00:34:36Z")
Yeah…there has been a bit of downward trend to destruction, but not nearly as long as the other two. I’m not about to get worked up…yet. But given the trend in production…it could be an issue. Maybe download the data and look at the earlier downward trend in production and see if there was a corresponding trend in destruction with some sort of possible lag. ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/79 "2020-12-23T00:35:58Z")
I think that letting the carebears have their way is the best decision, because the inevitable “I told you so” would be much more satisfying than playing today’s messed up EVE. Turn off the PvP and take away the subscription requirement for barges, and let them do whatever they want. I want to experience new and innovative complaining when every raw resource is worth exactly .01 ISK. “Destruction is not good” lol. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 12:43am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/80 "2020-12-23T00:43:24Z")
We can take a look at some of the reports of commodity prices differences between TQ and Serenity that people have made in the past. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/410277bfa72ce9f8fed5c78558e6d6fe3f393abd.png) For example, near the end of 2013, when Serenity was full on krab mode where conflict pretty much didn’t exist (other than arranged playdates), PLEX had hit 3.5 billion isk, while on TQ, it was only 600m. Because EVERYONE was krabbing and isk was pouring out of faucets like nothing. That’s what would happen. That’s what will happen. It just becomes a day job where everyone is forced to krab and grind harder and longer to make more isk to try and stay afloat during rampant inflation. This is what krabs and carebears don’t understand (and refuse to). [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=5)