# The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457 "2020-12-22T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/142 "2020-12-24T02:50:43Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Apparently no matter how many times you point something out, certain people won’t get it. I’ll try to break it down for you. > > So in a nutshell, the EVE cycle goes something like this: > “EvE is a PvP game, and PvP is lossy, meaning loss is real and costs you. Don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose, etc. So my best strategy is to build up lots of wealth, which acts as a multiplier for other activities, so I can do anything I want. So I’ll go build wealth so I can afford any losses that may happen through PvP, plus the freedom to do anything else”. > > So people create wealth farms. And since the wealth-farmers are much better at wealth-farming than the “warriors” are at destructioning, we have 3 times as much production as destruction, for years. We have wealth hoards built up that make Midas look like an amateur. And then… then, players start to realize “You know what? Now that I’ve built literally billions and trillions of wealth in the game… I’ve got nothing to do with it. If I just PvP with it, I’m basically just throwing it away to somebody else’s benefit. I don’t **need** PvP. It takes too long to find, it’s chancy, and I mostly just lose assets, not gain them. So why do it?” > > There’s a small percent of players who do it anyway. Mostly because they’re the ones who need asymmetric (unfair) combat situations because they need that sort of ego-boost. Or perhaps they find it challenging. For most players, other games offer better combat experiences. If EVE combat was better, you’d see more than a few percent of players engaging in it. > > So to be clear, one more time, for the hard of reading, I’m **not suggesting** nerfing PvP, removing PvP, or making it more ISK-profitable. Ignoring all of this pointless nonsense. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’m suggesting **increasing the amount of PvP engagement and destruction** that occurs by making improvements to various aspects of the PvP process. Ok, cool, so you’re not even talking about the same thing that CCP is address. Now we’ve discovered the root of your issues. You’re getting frustrated because CCP saw that the ecosystem is out of whack and is working to address that, but you want CCP to address something that’s tangentially related. > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’m saying that the overall direction is too much towards “take things away”, and not enough towards “give them new and **interesting** things to do so they will take risks and undergo destruction”. just fyi “interesting” = red flag for bad/poorly thought out ideas. So. First off, this is entirely meaningless. It’s on par with saying something like “PvE should be more dynamic!” Which, okay, sound good, but how? In what way? You say “interesting”, but what does that look like? We can start easy and ask “what does ‘interesting’ look like to _you_?” and we can work off that. Second, it’s painfully obvious that you’re trying to frame this discussion in a way that still allows for crabs and carebears to continue to bloat the ecosystem. In the same way that Wormholes exist, but not everyone engages in them, EVEN IF CCP listens to you and creates this nebulous “interesting” thing to encourage PvP, people can just… not participate. Full stop. So why would CCP waste their time coming up with an “interesting” thing that encourages PvP, when PvE krabs who don’t care will just opt out of it and continue to krab, all the while bloating the ecosystem and running the isk faucets on max day in and day out? Your argument just points to something new and says “well, this interesting thing _could_ be used as an isk sink, so therefore, the ecosystem bloating problem has been solved!” CCP’s changes DIRECTLY impact the ecosystem and work towards their claim of making it healthier. Your suggestion would create some other Resource-Wars level event that people could, but won’t participate in that doesn’t address the ecosystem problems that CCP is working to fix. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:18am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/143 "2020-12-24T03:18:42Z")
i like this man ![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/0/1/01c8ecbc063e5dd38d714f8fb1d75ac0d76ed26d.jpeg) i think eve is somewhat like that ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/144 "2020-12-24T03:24:02Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > So my best strategy is to build up lots of wealth This may be your best strategy, but since you are so _deliberately provocative_, what this also is, is just a very small minded view based on a narcissistic belief that what the best strategy is for you, is somehow the best strategy for everyone. That’s your failing, because you seem to simply lack the intelligence to understand that other people have other strategies that are just as effective for them in what is nothing more than a game, and seem unable to look beyond the shooty bit of PVP to see that there can be broader meta based goals than an immediate ship kill or loss. As far as I’m concerned for example, there is never a need to amass wealth at all. In fact, doing so involves the most boring parts of the gameplay. So in relation to this: > [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > PvP is lossy, meaning loss is real and costs you. Don’t fly what you can’t afford to lose, etc. It is far more effective just to convert a few minutes of my RL time into ISK by purchasing PLEX from CCP whenever I need ISK. It’s just a game and that’s a perfectly valid strategy. Nothing to do with being uniformed. Nothing to do with not getting it. Nothing to do with looking at the same information and arriving at a wrong (because it’s different) interpretation. Nothing wrong in pointing out that a single black and white view of things almost never works in Eve because it is a far more complex dynamic than hoard ISK or lose ISK. ISK is so easy to come by that hoarding it is almost the dumbest thing someone could choose to do. But hey, I’m sure since this is a different view, you just won’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/145 "2020-12-24T05:36:55Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > PvP in EVE mostly takes the form “I like PvP, so I’ll train my skills, fit my ships, plan my targets, then seek out an easy target that I most likely won’t lose to and should make a profit from, and kill it”. That is why you think pvp in this game sucks, pvp is not setting up some gang where you make profit thats ganking, ganking is the lowest form of pvp and yea it happens a lot becuase the mechanics of eve lead to it. Try small gang vs small gang pvp its a hell of a lot more fun and rewarding every single player 90% of the time comes out with less isk than they went in, but that is fine because that is why we pve so that we have the isk to do the type of pvp we love most. ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 5:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/146 "2020-12-24T05:40:32Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’m saying that the overall direction is too much towards “take things away”, and not enough towards “give them new and **interesting** things to do so they will take risks and undergo destruction”. This is CCP trying to fix their mistake of leaving Rorquals to be op for a very long period, once enough of that returns to a balanced state CCP will more than likely add more carrots as people like to say. Although they are probibly working on permanent carrots as we speak, the most logical thing to do in a time like this. I just hope in January things start to get better, in the last few week’s everything has been super quite kinda sad 😕 but understandable I guess since it is the holiday season. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/147 "2020-12-24T08:06:11Z")
Very well written and I agree with you. However you forgot the main reason behind CCP’s actions. Bottom line, CCP is cheap and they are desperately trying to get more free advertising from game reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/148 "2020-12-24T08:12:03Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > more free advertising from game reviews. Do you have any examples of this actually happening that are related to the specific changes that CCP is making? ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:19am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/149 "2020-12-24T08:19:50Z")
When was the last time you saw a real paid advertisement for Eve? I’ve only seen it done once which was back in 2008, CCP paid for a 30 second commercial spot to air on TV during Battlestar Galactica. [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/9/0/905b6244ef45c29dbc7043429a21ad14ed882074.jpeg "EVE Online Television Advertisment") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QImCw7WHOc) ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/150 "2020-12-24T08:29:10Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > When was the last time you saw a real paid advertisement for Eve? I see them all over webpages, although add blocker mostly removes them these days. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 8:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/151 "2020-12-24T08:38:45Z")
I didn’t ask for a paid advertisement by CCP. I was asking if you had any examples of CCP > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > desperately trying to get more free advertising from game reviews. So thanks for the youtube link that shows an ad, but that’s not what I asked for. I’d like to see examples of CCP getting “free advertising” from “game reviews”. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 9:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/152 "2020-12-24T09:21:33Z")
Gambling and EVE. You know what they say about bad habits. Because the house always wins. ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 9:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/153 "2020-12-24T09:25:34Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > > [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > > > When was the last time you saw a real paid advertisement for Eve? > > I see them all over webpages, although add blocker mostly removes them these days. Yeah, I’m not talking about a pre-programmed algorithm pop-up for the internet. I’m talking about an actual advertisement presented on mainstream media like what WOW and GTA has done. * * * > [@Scoots\_Choco](#): > > I’d like to see examples of CCP getting “free advertising” from “game reviews”. There use to be a lot of very large Null Sec battles in the past that were always reviewed by gaming news sites. That’s free advertising for CCP. For a while now there hasn’t been very many large Null Sec battles happening so the only other recourse left to gain free reviews from gaming news sites is to make big significant changes to the game. And CCP has been doing that quite a lot recently. With every significant game change they do, they get reviewed from gaming news sites which gives them free advertising. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 9:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/154 "2020-12-24T09:27:45Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > This may be your best strategy, but since you are so _deliberately provocative_, what this also is, is just a very small minded view based on a narcissistic belief that what the best strategy is for you, is somehow the best strategy for everyone. The strategy is for everyone, because without the wealth you cant pursue also the other strategies, if wealth is not the point in the first place. Money may not be everything, but they are always needed. Maybe only if you want to play by never undocking and only chatting in game channel you dont need any money. Teh wallet is there for a reason. The means of acquiring wealth by buying PLEX from CCP is preferred by those who dont have enough time or reason to get it by playing, and eventually CCP would want to get those people to spent more, if they did it once. The whales. Because CCP main goal is to acquire wealth while keeping players. If they see their strategy not effective, they will revert them, but damage can be already done. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/155 "2020-12-24T10:47:55Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > The strategy is for everyone, because without the wealth you cant pursue also the other strategies, if wealth is not the point in the first place. Sure. There are many strategies and different approaches are “best” for different people. Part of what’s great about this game is that there are many different goals and playstyles to pursue. What I care about in my entertainment is likely very different from what you care about, yet we can both play the same game and each get what we want. Wealth isn’t king. You might remember back a few years ago CCP Quant grouped the players into different groups at a Fanfest (I can’t find the graph right now), based on the patterns in their play picked up from the logs. They were ‘Professional’, ‘PVP’, ‘Industrial’, ‘Social’, and one other from memory (the people that were at risk of leaving the game). Those in the social group spend most of their time just chatting. They rarely undock, don’t do much industry or pvp. They get their enjoyment from friendships in game. Wealth doesn’t drive them, so hoarding wealth isn’t necessarily the best strategy for them. No one needs ISK just to talk. ---
**Author:** ![SeriousPun\_K](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seriouspun_k/32/238132_2.png) [@SeriousPun\_K](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/SeriousPun_K)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/156 "2020-12-24T10:50:52Z")
The TL;DR summary of the original post would be: a) Eve Online is dying. Players are leaving, not many mew players are coming in, turnover is shrinking along with player numbers. b) CCP does understand how to design a game … for PvP fans and gankers. c) Of course when a game is dying and many players leave (giving their blueprints etc to the corp they were in), there’ll be a change in the market. d) CCP does everything to cater to their nullsec alliance audience, and has neglected peaceful highsec playstyles for a decade. e) CCP has not added any protection against highsec gankers/exploiters, so it is less likely new players will stay around. Overall, the issue is that Eve Online is dying. CCP’s questionable decisions you listed above all seem aimed at keeping the nullsec / alliance / ganker pilots in the game and spending money. (I think it also means CCP has been making most of their money from nullsec players. If they needed highsec carebears’ subscriptions or even thought highsec players moderately relevant, they might have added new PvE content over the last decade, and addressed the problem with griefers exploiting the game mechanics to harrass mission runners.) ---
**Author:** ![SeriousPun\_K](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seriouspun_k/32/238132_2.png) [@SeriousPun\_K](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/SeriousPun_K)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/157 "2020-12-24T11:03:35Z")
Lemme guess at what it looked like when CCP Quant separated players into playstyles: - First, the PvP players are announced, and everyone is asked to applaud them and cheer. - Next, a bunch of bearded, long-haired, pale elderly gamers shuffle onto the stage, and CCP read statistics about how they have spend 20 hours per day in the game for the last years. - Then, they put a player center-stage, tie his bands behind his back, slap a pie in his face, kick him in the nuts, steal his wallet, and tell the audience this is what highsec carebears deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/158 "2020-12-24T11:06:15Z")
> [@SeriousPun\_K](#): > > and tell the audience this is what highsec carebears deserve. While that might well be what they deserve, CCP are a bit gentler than that. Here is the part from CCP Quant’s section of the 2015 Keynote that discusses it: [![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/e/e/eef3038308e6f3d266d1b923f2ec8d0229436d06.jpeg "EVE Fanfest 2015: EVE Online Keynote") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOGnPAbHKDk&t=1306) ---
**Author:** ![DeMichael\_Crimson](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/demichael_crimson/32/514115_2.png) [@DeMichael\_Crimson](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/DeMichael_Crimson)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/159 "2020-12-24T11:08:31Z")
Yeah, CCP places overpowered NPC’s in High Sec to do it for them… ---
**Author:** ![Destiny\_Corrupted](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/destiny_corrupted/32/411527_2.png) [@Destiny\_Corrupted](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Destiny_Corrupted)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/160 "2020-12-24T11:10:42Z")
You’re so bitter. Why are you even here? It’s not good for your health to just sit and stew with anger and regret. Go play DotA or something. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/161 "2020-12-24T11:39:52Z")
I am playing so much free games these days, they are so much better than EVE to be honest. even considering different genres. No grind like in EvE and PvP that is a lot better suited to everyone wishing to test their skills on equalized playfield with lots of counterplay options. Somewhere you dont have to spent months training for a ship CCP would nerf in next month. Or the same with playstyle. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=9)