# The Economy isn't Broken, and Destruction is not Good **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457 "2020-12-22T16:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![SeriousPun\_K](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/seriouspun_k/32/238132_2.png) [@SeriousPun\_K](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/SeriousPun_K)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/162 "2020-12-24T12:29:50Z")
This sort of condescending arrogance is unfortunately standard with toxic players: “Oh so you don’t like PvP, just go play with Barbies instead” (you just worded it slightly nicer). ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 12:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/163 "2020-12-24T12:37:50Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > No grind like in EvE But EVE has no grind? Skills are trained while offline and ISK is only needed to replace what you lose. So if you fly ships suitable to the ISK you get by playing for fun, you won’t have to grind at all. That’s what I do anyway. Now on the main topic: you may have provided facts indeed @Kezrai_Charzai (I did not verify them), production and mining may go down. But is that a bad thing? In a circular economy like EVE we need as much ISK to leave the game as it enters the game or we get inflation. Similarly we need as much items to leave the game as they enter or we get ‘item inflation’ or overproduction where items become worth less compared to how much time we spend on getting them. When items and ISK are worth less of our time, consequences for making mistakes will be less severe. And I remember that one of the base principles of EVE is that actions should have consequences. That production, sales and destruction go down may be a fact, but is not necessarily a bad thing. Saying that it’s bad is your opinion, not a fact, just like my opinion is that it’s more valuable to look at the amount of players\* instead of your numbers if you want to know the state of the game. If the same amount of players is mining and producing half the goods they produced last year while spending equal time in the game, I would say that there is nothing wrong with the health of the game, for example. \*(No idea what the number of players is doing right now though, I did not check those numbers. 😋) ---
**Author:** ![GloriousDeath](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloriousdeath/32/245138_2.png) [@GloriousDeath](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GloriousDeath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/164 "2020-12-24T14:26:21Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > I am playing so much free games these days, they are so much better than EVE to be honest. even considering different genres. No grind like in EvE and PvP that is a lot better suited to everyone wishing to test their skills on equalized playfield with lots of counterplay options. Somewhere you dont have to spent months training for a ship CCP would nerf in next month. Or the same with playstyle I agree 100% EVE is a nice game but very poorly managed. Have you tried Gloria Victis? If you like PvP in medieval open-world then you’ll like that one. There is some grinding but it manages to be fun and unexpected. ---
**Author:** ![GloriousDeath](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloriousdeath/32/245138_2.png) [@GloriousDeath](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GloriousDeath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/165 "2020-12-24T14:29:04Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Here is the part from CCP Quant’s section of the 2015 Keynote that discusses it: Words… Just words. Nothing meaningful behind those words but good feelings for the sake of the audience. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/166 "2020-12-24T14:32:03Z")
> [@GloriousDeath](#): > > Words… Just words Isn’t everything? Context gives it meaning (hence referencing it in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/167 "2020-12-24T14:45:12Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > is just a very small minded view based on a narcissistic belief that what the best strategy is for you, is somehow the best strategy for everyone. > > That’s your failing, because you seem to simply lack the intelligence to understand that other people have other strategies that are just as effective for them in what is nothing more than a game, and seem unable to look beyond the shooty bit of PVP to see that there can be broader meta based goals than an immediate ship kill or loss. Sorry, but you seem to be able to post data without comprehending it. Needing to toss in irrelevant insults like “narcissistic” and “lack intelligence” just weakens your points further. Like, if you wanted to toss in “pedantic” or “long-winded” or something, at least you’d be on point. That would require a bit more thought though. The point you’re missing, which I already covered by saying “Individual examples of every behavior and playstyle will always exist”, is that these aren’t **my** playstyles or **my** preferences we’re talking about. **This is CCP’s own published data for years now.** It’s been this way since the beginning, and it’s continuing even now - people farm more, produce more, and build more wealth **by far** than they engage in lossy, destructive, largely pointless (except for ego-stroking) combat. > [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > It is far more effective just to convert a few minutes of my RL time into ISK by purchasing PLEX from CCP whenever I need ISK. It’s just a game and that’s a perfectly valid strategy. Funny how you call me narcissistic, but I’m using game-wide, decade-long data and you’re only talking about what works for you. Ah well, the PvP mindset has never been overly self-aware. Or able to look at a data set and derive correct conclusions. Pro tip: when you’re talking about the game, individual preferences are irrelevant. The data is right there in front of you. You just don’t want to see what it’s saying. So here’s a tip, a small clue, a point to ponder for you: Yes, it’s useful that CCP has slowed down some egregious forms of wealth farming. Shame they also nuked the whole economy while they did it but there it is. **However** , (and here’s the clue, I’m being obvious here so you don’t miss it), _slowing down the **rate** of wealth gain does not reduce current wealth stockpiles_. I don’t know how much clearer than that I can put it. Crippling the earning/production cycle achieves nothing useful unless you also encourage and increase the amount of **consumption** of existing stockpiles. That means ISK sinks, and long-term, consistent player engagement with destructive behaviors. Which only happens if you make the process more accessible and more desirable (or at least, less lossy). At any rate, Scoots, even though he’s a one-trick troll, asked a sort of legitimate question, and got a legitimate answer. Then he proceeded to ignore that answer, throw in some more trolling, and ask the same question again. So it’s back in the troll-hole for Scoots! You posted a reply that at least tried to be factual, then when you got your fingers burned for not paying attention to what your own posted data showed, you fell back on insults and “but this is what **I** want so it’s good for the whole game!”. As the PvP crowd usually does, despite all evidence to the contrary. So you get another chance if you choose to post something legit, but if you blow it, it’s back in the troll-hole for you too! ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/168 "2020-12-24T14:54:18Z")
> [@Makshima\_Shogo](#): > > That is why you think pvp in this game sucks, pvp is not setting up some gang where you make profit thats ganking, ganking is the lowest form of pvp and yea it happens a lot becuase the mechanics of eve lead to it. Um, no. People keep forgetting I’m not talking about my personal preferences here. I say that PvP in EVE sucks because I’ve done it, I’ve talked to people about it, I’ve watched the videos and read the strategy guides on it, and it’s mostly a **one-sided, boring, clunky, awkward** process that generally takes too long to make happen for the amount of entertainment and reward that it provides. However, that’s my **opinion** , it’s not a fact. So we want to go digging for facts. So _factually_, we see that for over a decade, production has outweighed destruction by 3 to 1. We see that only 13.8% of logins even involve PvP (CCP’s numbers, not mine). We see that for years now, CCP has been adding in NPCs to do the destruction for them, **because players can’t be bothered to engage in it**. That’s why PvP in EVE sucks. Not because 10% or less of the players (counting alts) actually engage in it and want it. But because 90% of the playerbase finds it too unattractive to even bother with. ---
**Author:** ![Kezrai\_Charzai](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kezrai_charzai/32/394578_2.png) [@Kezrai\_Charzai](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kezrai_Charzai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/169 "2020-12-24T15:13:02Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > That production, sales and destruction go down may be a fact, but is not necessarily a bad thing. Saying that it’s bad is your opinion, not a fact, just like my opinion is that it’s more valuable to look at the amount of players\* instead of your numbers if you want to know the state of the game. > > If the same amount of players is mining and producing half the goods they produced last year while spending equal time in the game, I would say that there is nothing wrong with the health of the game, for example. > > \*(No idea what the number of players is doing right now though, I did not check those numbers. 😋) Why would you even make a point without checking the key issue the point revolves around? My point is not about preferences, it’s not about calling it good or bad. It’s to point out that GAME ACTIVITY IS OVERALL DOWN. We’re not talking ISK amounts here. It’s actual players engaging with the game. Plex is trending back down. Player numbers are trending down even though December is generally the peak month of the year, and even though CCP has been running non-stop events for months, and even though Covid has increased gaming traffic worldwide and most games are seeing increases. If this ability to not see what even basic perusal of the MERs would show is standard, then perhaps that’s the issue. Maybe even CCP can’t see what their own data shows. Here’s something for you to look at: With the new “ecosystem balances”, mineral prices are rapidly increasing. The charts show activity in “Value of ISK mined”, not volume of ore. So if the **price** of minerals is headed **up** , and the total ISK value mined is headed **down** , that means the amount of player activity engaging in mining is **very down**. The same goes for production. Player activity is headed down. Player logins are headed down. Plex is headed down. Most of these changes are subtle, and (somewhat) recent. Although the economy as a whole has been heading down for a couple years, actually. These things are happening during what is normally EVE’s busy peak season, while a global pandemic has far more people stuck in their homes with far more time to kill than normal. I’m not saying EVE is dying. I’m not saying players are fleeing in droves. I’m not saying PvP is bad and needs to be nerfed. I’m saying that CCP has chosen a “solution” (reduce production and ISK farming) to address a problem (massive wealth accumulation). I’m saying the solution does not match the problem because slowing the rate of wealth building hurts the poor more than the wealthy, and does nothing to reduce already-accumulated wealth. So to answer your question: Yes, slowing the economy is a bad thing, if it reduces overall player interest and activity in the game and addresses only a portion of the problem. And the least important portion, at that. ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/170 "2020-12-24T15:21:24Z")
> [@Nana\_Skalski](#): > > Gambling and EVE. You know what they say about bad habits. > > Because the house always wins. no… i always win btw ms nana that new blue suit is fabulous but you are doing that pessimistic thing again ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/171 "2020-12-24T16:06:22Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > I’m not saying EVE is dying. But it is! > [@tutucox\_Khamsi](#): > > pessimistic Well, that changes nothing, so I may actually stop saying all those things. I would get satisfaction I was right anyway. And if accidentally not, I would look a lot wiser than I am without being right but not saying anything. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![tutucox\_Khamsi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tutucox_khamsi/32/430743_2.png) [@tutucox\_Khamsi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/tutucox_Khamsi)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/172 "2020-12-24T16:17:57Z")
“Some things in life are bad They can really make you mad Other things just make you swear and curse When you’re chewing on life’s gristle Don’t grumble, give a whistle And this’ll help things turn out for the best” ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/173 "2020-12-24T16:23:25Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > If this ability to not see what even basic perusal of the MERs you are over estimating the value your bad interpretation of the MER and using it to support a bad idea that doesn’t even address the main issues. ---
**Author:** ![Scipio\_Artelius](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scipio_artelius/32/408264_2.png) [@Scipio\_Artelius](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scipio_Artelius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/174 "2020-12-24T21:14:23Z")
> [@Kezrai\_Charzai](#): > > Needing to toss in irrelevant insults Ah, big of mouth and thin of skin. We’ve seen you many times before. As expected, but Merry Christmas to you. ---
**Author:** ![GloriousDeath](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloriousdeath/32/245138_2.png) [@GloriousDeath](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GloriousDeath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/175 "2020-12-24T22:20:25Z")
> [@Scipio\_Artelius](#): > > Ah, big of mouth and thin of skin WTF 🤣 Do insults cease to be insults if the recipient of said insults has thick skin and doesn’t mind?? Does it apply to the contrary as well? Is English your first language ? Because I’d understand your replies a lot better if I knew it weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/176 "2020-12-24T22:41:32Z")
> [@GloriousDeath](#): > > Do insults cease to be insults if the recipient of said insults has thick skin and doesn’t mind?? Does it apply to the contrary as well? If they dont mind, then that would be banter. The contrary? That things can _become_ insults if the recepient has a thin skin? The evidence is daily on these forums that, yes, it does apply in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![GloriousDeath](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gloriousdeath/32/245138_2.png) [@GloriousDeath](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GloriousDeath)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/177 "2020-12-24T22:50:46Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > If they dont mind, then that would be banter. > > The contrary? That things can _become_ insults if the recepient has a thin skin? The evidence is daily on these forums that, yes, it does apply in reverse That explains everything then 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Huradhard\_Skor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/huradhard_skor/32/250026_2.png) [@Huradhard\_Skor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Huradhard_Skor)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 5:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/178 "2020-12-25T05:01:57Z")
its also pretty weird how destruction and trade are going down even tho we are in a so called ‘‘big war?’’ ---
**Author:** ![Gretek\_Moergyn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gretek_moergyn/32/379137_2.png) [@Gretek\_Moergyn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gretek_Moergyn)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/179 "2020-12-25T11:57:40Z")
> [@leavwiz](#): > > The ineffectual tries at forced pvp and starving out industrialists simply isnt working and people are not playing to the degree they were before. login counts stay decent because of the giveaways, not because content has improved. In my case, I am playing more because I really need something to take my mind away from RL worries, **especially** this pandemic. That is the reason I reactivated a paid account I started in 2005. I don’t care at all about the giveaways. I don’t understand and don’t care about understanding most of the items being given away. I just sell them. ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/180 "2020-12-25T18:50:06Z")
Why? Pretty much all the big groups must have huge stockpiles of pretty much everything? Nullsec was self sufficient for long enough not to be needing to touch Jita, no? Right now they’re burning through their stockpiles, no? ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457/181 "2020-12-25T21:01:58Z")
There was a guy, Serkanner. Was. I though the lesson would be remembered. Keep the heads cool peeps, and tongue on a leash. Who cares if its a holiday or else, or if you are a veteran. Certainly not ISD or CCP. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=8) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-economy-isnt-broken-and-destruction-is-not-good/286457.md?page=10)