# The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official\ **Created:** [December 27, 2020, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097 "2020-12-27T11:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![safira\_jomita](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/safira_jomita/32/405219_2.png) [@safira\_jomita](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/safira_jomita)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/358 "2020-12-29T02:50:36Z")
> [@CCP\_Rattati](#): > > Everything about it is complicated, who can cloak, how cloaking works, who can cloak and cyno, the different use cases for cloaking, the necessity of big game hunting It’s so simple, remove ability of cloaking from ships with a cyno module installed ---
**Author:** ![Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/neo_bladedrifter/32/244232_2.png) [@Neo\_Bladedrifter](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Neo_Bladedrifter)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 2:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/359 "2020-12-29T02:50:57Z")
> [@safira\_jomita](#): > > Cloaky campers but yes. if ccp will give some you thing to counter this gameplay. It will be fun for both playing style. battle of wits will be fun. I do visit null for explo in a stilleto with some cloak and less than 2 seconds align. Smartbombers are my green kryptonite not bubbles and instalock. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 2:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/360 "2020-12-29T02:51:28Z")
> [@CCP\_Rattati](#): > > More or less spot on! The first step on the march towards death. > [@Arrendis](#): > > First, on the IHUBs: What they’ve said on-stream when they weren’t being careful indicated that they really are looking for better IHUB customization, like ‘_This_ system will be spod-rich, and the one next door will have lots of Gneiss’. Normally I agree with you Arrendis, though in this case I have to disagree. In a previous Null life I couldn’t have cared if the I-Hub in the 11 systems I managed had gneiss, dark orche or were nothing but scordite. I cared that the 115 towers the corporation ran pumped out a steady supply of moon ore on the hour, every hour, because at the end of the month the alliance tax man came to collect their 30 pieces of silver from those towers for SRP. I cared that the i-Hubs blocked cyno’s when I wanted them blocked, I cared that the jump bridges allowed free fleet movement in and out of the cyno umbrella. The only I-Hub or module I was missing was either an anti-cloaking module, or an anti-covert cyno module to counter the d-scan scraping bots that the ultra-rich herded into the territory. A stretch goal would have been a ESS like tax collector, so that the corporation could have gotten something for the billions of ISK spent in anomaly spawning upgrades, though, considering that the alliance tax man didn’t take all the moon ore for SRP, the billions in NPC bounties that could be taxed from the players that formed to defend the Moon Ore towers anyway was a loss not worth arguing over. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And the Reserve Bank keys aren’t going to provide disincentive to ratting—that money’s already gone, from the ratter’s POV. Its still there, they can see it in the hotlink. > [@Arrendis](#): > > It’s not paying out to the ratters. What it will do is provide alliances more reason to defend. After all, that money can essentially replace ratting taxes… **if** the alliance can get it. If alliances cared about ratting taxes, there wouldn’t be so many corporations with a tax rate of 0%. If CCP bothered to iterate on corporation management mechanics, there would be options for % or flat-rate membership costs for line members, as well as options within an alliance to recover costs from corporations. Build it into the damn game, rather than forcing the use of API’s and clunky spreadsheets. > [@Arrendis](#): > > In fact, because a portion of the bounty reduction from the DBS goes to the reserve bank, the ones with the lowest multipliers will be the ones _most_ worth securing. That’s where the money will consistently be, which lets alliances focus on those areas. Not sure its going to work out this way, already parts of Null are responding to DBS by grinding the frigate sites to keep the ADM high while stopping the DBS from tanking. Incursions are definitely becoming more popular, people are using mains in null to do their bit for ADM and then spending hours running incursions to make actual ISK, because DBS takes more than they see as worthwhile. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Even though it means lower individual payouts, the collective benefits may _seriously_ outweigh any pressure to spread out or move around. That will play out well in recruitment with a race to the bottom, exactly the same as the near universal 0% tax rate Null corporations like to promote. Anything that gets more F1 muppets than everyone else, right? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Also, I think you’re misinterpreting what they mean by ‘revisiting high-risk income platforms’. If they’re saying those platforms are high-risk, they may be looking at ways to make it _worth_ the risk. The only place I ever felt confident using a marauder was in an escalation, because cyno’s don’t work in them. If the reward was increased to make it worth risking a 4 billion ISK ship otherwise, no doubt there would be complaints that the amount of ISK generated is excessive. > [@Arrendis](#): > > If Rorqs mine exactly as much as Procurers do, you’ll still see people preferring Rorqs, because they can jump direct to the moon-field and then directly out to the refinery. That and the 5 minute invulnerability timer helps tremendously if you have a super umbrella response fleet coming. > [@Arrendis](#): > > ISK/time isn’t the determining metric, it’s ISK/effort. Absolutely agree, CCP keeps on messing with the effort, ignoring that people will just turn to the path of least resistance, which just ends up squeezing out the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Litsea\_Reticulata](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/litsea_reticulata/32/328016_2.png) [@Litsea\_Reticulata](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Litsea_Reticulata)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 3:42am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/361 "2020-12-29T03:42:17Z")
> [@CCP\_Rattati](#): > > Interesting idea. There was a presentation CCP did years ago when the carrier were converted over from drones to fighters. I forget with CCP it was, but there was a lineup of people at the microphone who were upset, and as each had their turn, the person from CCP would say “That is an interesting idea” or “We may look at that”. Whilst it might not have same calming effect on the disgruntled, there are days this scripted response feels like it needs to be put to rest and people just get told “No”. That said, SP farming, like HS moon mining, are evils that are likely forever part of the landscape, despite how ugly it has become. > [@CCP\_Rattati](#): > > That’s why it hasn’t been tackled in a meaningful way for years but we are up for the challenge in 2021. While you are at it, cloaks on interdictors, and the inconsistency that warp probe launchers don’t create weapons timers in the same way that other AoE modules work, i.e., smart bombs, boosters, ECM bursts. > [@littlertree](#): > > i am still waiting for the heavybomber they promice year ago You mean like a cruiser sized cloaky ship? Or a new super capital fighter? > [@Matt\_Faithbringer](#): > > So, could some new deployable, that would work like mobile depot (can be scooped back into the cargo), while being more expensive AND blocking covert cynos work? Or does that break other parts of the game too much? No because people just cyno outside the range of its effects with one ship and hold you down with the other. > [@Optimus\_Maximus](#): > > Great, you are going to ruin the industry too? CCP can’t ruin it more than the players themselves have, industry has 0.01 ISK’d themselves into the gutter, climbing over each other to get a sale. > [@leavwiz](#): > > we didnt ask for rorquals to become mining platforms. they were boosting ships. making them OP miners and then nerfing them over and over along with reducing rock size is just stupid. rethink the rorqual. and btw, making excavator drones bigger had nothing to do with mining , it was all about making rorquals bigger loot pinata’s what other explanation is there for that change? I miss the days of just sitting in a POS with the mining booster going, it was simple and straightforward. Now its just a matter of fitting a rorqual with a massive tank and mining with T2 drones and still getting more m^3 than an exhumer. > [@Chan\_aar](#): > > (oh and btw I do mean the forums and not flocking reddit) Amen to that. > [@Chan\_aar](#): > > Nerf’s passive intel for both sides, which is why they would hate it. Still need to disable D-scan so the bot herding software has nothing to scrape. > [@Dictateur\_Imperator](#): > > You don’t nerf the intel and fact you are totally safe to tacle people and deny all response fleet by deleting people in less of 20 second. Which is probably what people hate so much about the rorqual, with the invulnerability field it takes at least 5 minutes to kill it. > [@Vortigern\_Vitalis](#): > > The changes to ore distribution has not, as far as I can see, caused any conflict, just meant that NS corporations now have mining fleets in HS at no risk to themselves. That is not causing any conflict. There used to be wars over R64’s. Owning territory used to mean something. Holding territory just gets a nasty bill in the corp ledger every 7 days. > [@Bob\_der\_Blob](#): > > wait wait wait??? did i read it right? “NO COUNTERPLAY” gainst cloacky campers??cant be… all thoose years i was reading it works as intendet and you can easy fight em? Yeah, this is just like when CCP discovered wars were killing player retention after 15+ years. > [@RealEchnaton](#): > > Maybe the owner of the space can choose the mode: > > - like today, local + afk cloak possible > - no cloak possible + delayed local. > > My personal favorite is, that cloaking need fuel and a ship should able to have a fuel bay for aprox. 3 hours cloak. Lets get one thing sorted out. The ‘delayed local’ implemented during blackout should have been called ‘optional local’ as no amount of waiting would have caused someone to show up in local. > [@Arrendis](#): > > That’s the thing: someone has to _have_ resources, as opposed to nobody having them. But yes, you _will_ see groups establishing trade cartels, because in the long run, that, not warfare, is the optimized solution to ‘you have stuff we don’t and we want some’. Well, one way or another the trade takes place, if not in a cartel, stuff will just get boxed up and shipped to Jita. > [@Arrendis](#): > > People just stop showing up because it’s a grind. Because… it’s a grind, and people get tired of the grind, especially when grinding it out means they have to be on the wrong side of the map, not doing the things they want to be doing. We’re lucky, this war: it came to _us_. We have all our stuff here, and when the war ends, all our stuff will still be wherever we are. We won’t even have to go home, we’re already there. Which is probably why there are calls for asset safety to be changed, as its hard to really impact that which just sits in an NPC station for perpetuity. > [@Arrendis](#): > > You know, kinda like the one two months ago that the servers couldn’t handle because fighter mechanics prevented the damage from multiple doomsdays from hitting _non-fighters_. Let’s get one thing clear, though: you’re not going to see that massive supercapital brawl unless someone screws up. You’re not going to see it because alliances aren’t willing to throw away ships they _need_ in order to hold their space. Because every war will get to this point, the point of ‘well, it’s gonna be decided by the supers’. No supers, no space right? > [@Arrendis](#): > > And you haven’t addressed that. You haven’t even _begun_ to address that. All the changes that have happened _have not made supercapitals even one iota less necessary for holding space_. And they haven’t made holding space any less necessary for building up a supercapital fleet. So the closed loop of ‘you can’t afford to lose your supers’ is still there. If anything, it’s gotten _worse_ as they’ve gotten harder and more expensive to build, because the people who have them aren’t getting rid of them, and the people who don’t have them… can’t _get_ them. Not in the kind of numbers they need. Or the places that they can be purchased from are part of the problem and it just results in more supers getting constructed. > [@Arrendis](#): > > If Legacy is willing to shoot themselves in the head like that, Vince _et al_ would be fools not to help them do it. So they’re helping. Foolishness, not scarcity, not anything CCP did, removed an obstacle—Legacy’s sense of self-preservation—and made this war possible. Didn’t legacy start to run out of content and members were leaving in search of PvP else where, so they pretty much had to pick a fight or start dying of atrophy? > [@Arrendis](#): > > Of course, _that_ just led to widening rental empires—something else you really need to address if you want to avoid massive income streams for no risk, because there is literally nothing that better exemplifies ‘risk-free money’ than letting a bunch of conflict-avoidant PvEers pay you not to stomp on their stuff. Really good point there, though, considering the benefactors of the current situation, unlikely that it will change. > [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > For me this sounds like you want to make highsec safer maybe from low sec status gankers? I hope so, people can do do their punch-ups behind the toilet where it belongs and leave the rest of us alone. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Also kinda sounds like they’ll need to reduce the ability to make money in highsec, where L4 missions, Incursions, and _mining_ are all currently massive money-makers. What else did people expect to happen when the AKF gila/ishtar crowd were told they actually had to pay attention? Incursions already got a nerf and its not like they scale by taking more territory or putting in I-hub module upgrades. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Incursions have been nerfed, but they remain a significant form of income. Like driving at high speed, gets exhausting over time and when things go wrong, it means something. ---
**Author:** ![Joseph\_Panacan](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/joseph_panacan/32/461889_2.png) [@Joseph\_Panacan](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Joseph_Panacan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 3:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/362 "2020-12-29T03:56:03Z")
I’ve seen cloaky campers with 10 BLOPS, not bombers ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/363 "2020-12-29T03:59:27Z")
> [@safira\_jomita](#): > > It’s so simple, remove ability of cloaking from ships with a cyno module installed Congratulations, you’ve made the entire Force Recon class cease to exist. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > in this case I have to disagree. You can disagree all you like, but that’s what Rattati and Psych said to Dawn on the stream. 🤷‍♂️ In other words, they’ve already told us they’re looking at additional specialization in IHUB upgrades. So, feel free to disagree with me, but all I’m saying is ‘they said this’. And they did. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > If alliances cared about ratting taxes, there wouldn’t be so many corporations with a tax rate of 0%. Right. Under the _old_ paradigm, where ratting mostly functioned to keep ADMs up and keep members’ wallets flush. With the reduction of income from locally-sourced minerals moving through the market hubs, alliances will need to supplement their income. The easiest way to do that is to use the income already being generated. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > already parts of Null are responding to DBS by grinding the frigate sites to keep the ADM high while stopping the DBS from tanking. Different parts of null are responding in different ways. My personal prediction is that you’re going to see the majority of systems following the method you’re talking about, with ‘ratting hubs’ getting set up where pockets are established that see heavy ratting, but also because of the massive ESS numbers, probably heavy hostile incursion, and so focused defensive efforts—and that destruction will keep the DBS numbers high enough to be viable. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Anything that gets more F1 muppets than everyone else, right? No. Anything that gets more _manpower_, for whatever is needed. F1 muppets, as you put it, are a side-benefit when compared to more scouts, more recon pilots, more logi pilots, more _logisticians_ handling the alliance/coalition’s infrastructure needs, more FCs… Honestly, the path to sustained numbers isn’t ‘maximum morons’, but a robust system where people are actively encouraged to specialize, take on more active roles, and find the things they love to do. And if people are being helped to find parts of the game they like to play, why is that a bad thing? > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > The only place I ever felt confident using a marauder was in an escalation, because cyno’s don’t work in them. They don’t work in highsec, either. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Well, one way or another the trade takes place, if not in a cartel, stuff will just get boxed up and shipped to Jita. Right, but the cartel interests come into play differently. It’s not ‘who makes the trade to whom’, but rather ‘don’t kill the golden goose’. The best example is OTEC, which @CCP_Rattati has already referenced. Technetium moon towers were off-limits. We didn’t shoot NCdot/PL/etc Tech towers, they didn’t shoot ours. But cartels _also_ breed wars, and that shouldn’t be overlooked. Heck, the 2012 Tribute war happened because Vince became convinced we were going to kick NCdot out of OTEC and burn down his tech moons, so he decided to attack ours first… and as a result, he got burned out of Tribute, kicked out of OTEC, and lost all his tech moons. There’s a lesson in there someplace. > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > its hard to really impact that which just sits in an NPC station for perpetuity. Right, but the people sitting on stockpiles aren’t dumb. Those stockpiles are in highsec, in perfectly safe NPC stations in a specific system that CCP has said will forever be exempt from the vagaries of plot (ie: Jita). > [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > Didn’t legacy start to run out of content and members were leaving in search of PvP else where, so they pretty much had to pick a fight or start dying of atrophy? Yeah, but they started a war w/FRT to address that… and then promptly refused to actually _fight_ that war because they couldn’t attack against enemy supers… so they banded together with the people they were supposedly shooting at to attack us. ---
**Author:** ![Optimus\_Maximus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/optimus_maximus/32/368882_2.png) [@Optimus\_Maximus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Optimus_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/364 "2020-12-29T04:45:08Z")
> [@Litsea\_Reticulata](#): > > CCP can’t ruin it more than the players themselves have, industry has 0.01 ISK’d themselves into the gutter, climbing over each other to get a sale. Lol what? You are confusing trading with industry. That’s just like saying I’m doing PVP and then I tell you how many Angel rats I’ve killed in the belts doing PVP. As for the market what do you expect from a system where the top order is the only one that sells? For people to patiently wait for their turn in a pvp trading system? And yes industry can be ruined far more than it is now - for example limiting the availability of blueprint originals or capping the amount of manufacturing jobs per region / constellation / etc, or increasing costs / time based on such count, or removing it altogether and forcing people to use player owned stations to manufacture stuff, etc. etc. etc. There’s a myriad of ways to destroy the industry as we know it. As i said before, all these changes are carried out very very slowly to fall in line with PA’s new vision for the game - they can’t change it all in one day because there will be unsubs en masse. ---
**Author:** ![RealEchnaton](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/realechnaton/32/243119_2.png) [@RealEchnaton](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/RealEchnaton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/365 "2020-12-29T05:32:46Z")
> [@Flanidia](#): > > > [@Fartsniffer\_Munba](#): > > > > The MER is not only a bunch of pictures, but also a data file with raw info, that’s where he got those. > > Indeed, I’m looking at the data file for kills right now and while there is a column for system and system id, there is no column for system security status. > > Maybe you should look at the file before jumping in : ) You can get the static data from here [https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sde-conversion-2021201/284253](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/sde-conversion-2021201/284253) and I got the numbers from SQL via join, example for highsec: ``` SELECT COUNT(*),regionname,`security`,m.itemName FROM test.killdump k INNER JOIN sdeyaml.mapdenormalize m on k.solarSystemID = m.solarSystemID WHERE (destroyedShipgroup IN ("Mining Barge","Exhumer") OR destroyedShipType = 'Venture') AND regionname <> "Pochven" and SECURITY >= 0.5 ``` Pochven has to be excluded, because it is still with the old security listedn for example Niarja is with security 0,5 in the database. ---
**Author:** ![RealEchnaton](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/realechnaton/32/243119_2.png) [@RealEchnaton](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/RealEchnaton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/366 "2020-12-29T05:50:53Z")
I think, it is needed to differentiate the number for nullsec a bit. Lowsec and Highsec still valid. Lowsec: 428723 Highsec: 230862 Nullsec without Wormhole: 322169 Wormhole: 168449 In all numbers Pochven are excluded, number for Pochven is: 72782 ---
**Author:** ![Tudor\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tudor_toralen/32/247663_2.png) [@Tudor\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tudor_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/367 "2020-12-29T06:02:54Z")
We are going to “fix” this: [![Imgur](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/3/5/35b38b705a7382d2ecb89fcb0780a29357014edc.jpeg "imgur.com") ](https://imgur.com/nj8CCSD) ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 8:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/371 "2020-12-29T08:37:04Z")
Thanks for looking into the poch ecosystem, I would like to ask for a deeper look into 2 ships that go against the ideals that I see from CCP. They are the hecate and the jackdaw they have under 2 sec align and it is creating a lot of instances of risk free isk generation in poch and in faction warfare and in my eyes it is quite a big problem. ---
**Author:** ![Perkar](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/perkar/32/248503_2.png) [@Perkar](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Perkar)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 8:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/372 "2020-12-29T08:40:41Z")
i miss the way the belts used to be. so awesome seeing those huge fields - how an asteroid belt actually looks. now it just looks… baren and not worthwile. especially since now its barely useful (ore dna) ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 8:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/373 "2020-12-29T08:47:54Z")
Have you seen a c13 mineral field 😃 it looks insane, especially the ice fields. > **[Shattered Debris Field - EVE University Wiki](https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Shattered_Debris_Field)** > **[Shattered Ice Field - EVE University Wiki](https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Shattered_Ice_Field)** ---
**Author:** ![Penance\_Toralen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/penance_toralen/32/244089_2.png) [@Penance\_Toralen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Penance_Toralen)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 8:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/374 "2020-12-29T08:48:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > B) Goonswarm has a long history of telling CCP right up front “If you do this, _here_ is how we will abuse this mechanic. We will do this because if we do not, we will place ourselves at a disadvantage against our enemies, and we will not do that to ourselves. So we _will_ do this, if you let us. **Please do not let us do this, because we should not be able to do this.** ” Eve has arrived at this mess when Mynnna, a Goon CSM solely advised CCP about mineral distribution back in 2014. There was certainly nothing there about warning CCP, else goons will abuse. Looking at these now restrictions is direct walk-back from 2014. The 2014 mineral distribution removed one of the key natural throttles to the growth of the mega-coalition. 29k members under one banner, when in a game which prides itself on conflict, could be 5 x 6k in overlapping wars. It would be a challenge to see mechanics in game which groups over membership exceeding 6k would produce rapid diminishing returns in near hyperbola rates. I would curious to see CCP comment, though I do not expect it. doubleplusungood refs unpersons rewrite fullwise upsub antefiling. It’s come a long way from _here to ruin your_ game to “we cried out to save it”. ---
**Author:** ![Wadiest\_Yong](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/wadiest_yong/32/426921_2.png) [@Wadiest\_Yong](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Wadiest_Yong)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 8:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/375 "2020-12-29T08:49:26Z")
Thank you for your reply, sir. I took the liberty to define ecosystem as the entire game environment, not only the (crucial) economic aspect your team focuses on - although “the afk cloaking question” could also be considered a mere side-aspect of the Ecosystem, albeit a noisy one. Perhaps there is a need for a global vision '21 dev blog/presentation covering more aspects, after a year of fragmentary news and without a Fanfest. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Fellinger](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/richard_fellinger/32/261666_2.png) [@Richard\_Fellinger](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Richard_Fellinger)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 9:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/376 "2020-12-29T09:35:19Z")
They just don’t get it and believe customers are there for their entertainment and that THEIR wishes will dictate this game instead of their customers. I hope CCP learns, one way or another, that the customer is always right, and since CCP appears incapable of learning this the easy way I hope they learn it the hard way. They continue to antagonize HS players with roaming Triglavian fleets in high-sec and ever more frequent pirate FOBs appearing to try to get THEIR customers to do as THEY (the devs) WISH. Its rare to see a business this arrogant towards, and dismissive of their customers wishes & concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 10:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/377 "2020-12-29T10:28:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Fellinger](#): > > I hope CCP learns, one way or another, that the customer is always right Unless you like being lied to, this was never true. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 11:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/378 "2020-12-29T11:06:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Fellinger](#): > > that the customer is always right To continue on from Ramona, this is literally one of the worst sayings to ever make its way into circulation, and has resulted in the abuse of an entire segment of the workforce as a result. The customer is not usually right in most work environments, especially in the MMO market where they are lacking massive amounts of information and have a highly subjective viewpoint, and CCP are here to make their product. Players can choose if they want the product or not and CCP may respond to mass market shifts, but CCP are not going to chase every customer, that’s a recipe for disaster ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/379 "2020-12-29T11:52:19Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > Players can choose if they want the product or not and CCP may respond to mass market shifts That’s not correct. In a market with only 1 service provider, the customer cannot chose whether they want to use a product or not because they do not have any choice. That is the sole reason why CCP is not yet bankrupt and why CCP can continue to exist despite their trashy development practices and quality. If CCP had competition, players would have long left CCP in the dust. And CCP would also have had to face similar consequences that CDPR has to suffer through at this point in time. CCP delivers crap features, over promises quality, takes ages to fix their issues and shifts the blame for bad performance to players instead of attributing it to their own incompetence. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > but CCP are not going to chase every customer, that’s a recipe for disaster That is not correct either. CCP has been chasing every customer they can get their hands on for years now. They are pandering to weirdos, opened up TQ for the botting empires from China, changed ships and mechanics and introduced skill trading to benefit massive whale farms and multiboxer farms despite knowing full well how it would wreck the economy. Everything you say could not be further from the truth. However, as long as CCP has no competition and as long as it has customers like you, they can happily continue with their garbage quality and performance because customers have no choice. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 11:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/380 "2020-12-29T11:57:18Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That’s not correct. In a market with only 1 service provider The MMO market does not have only one service provider, there are plenty of competitive products for people who do not want the EVE experience. So we aren’t talking about a monopoly market here and clearly weren’t ever talking about a monopoly. > [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > That is not correct either. CCP has been chasing every customer they can get their hands on for years now. Yeah no they haven’t, but if you are delusional enough to believe this… Yeah. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=17) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=19)