# The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official\ **Created:** [December 27, 2020, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097 "2020-12-27T11:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/381 "2020-12-29T11:59:39Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > The MMO market does not have only one service provider, there are plenty of competitive products for people who do not want the EVE experience. And that is why you are wrong. You are shifting the goal post. People who do not want the eve experience are irrelevant. People who want the EVE experience are the one who matter. And they do not have any alternative that is not worse (star citizens pipedream, EVE echoes) or offers a completely different experience in a space environment (Dual Universe). There is not a single other MMO that is like EVE. This is a huge difference to other genres like Fantasy MMOs where tons of clones of WOW, FF et al. exist. ---
**Author:** ![Nevyn\_Auscent](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nevyn_auscent/32/255124_2.png) [@Nevyn\_Auscent](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nevyn_Auscent)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/382 "2020-12-29T12:07:51Z")
> [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](#): > > People who do not want the eve experience are irrelevant. Except those are exactly who I was talking about. CCP make and define the EVE experience. People who decide they don’t want the product CCP makes are LITERALLY the people who do not want the EVE experience. And there are plenty of other MMO’s out there that people who don’t like CCP’s changes can go and play, if that dislike is strong enough. And at no point should CCP cry over losing a customer when making their game their way. ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/383 "2020-12-29T12:09:10Z")
> [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > And at no point should CCP cry over losing a customer when making their game their way. They should not? They did after the Blackout. 🙂 Falcon’s sad face when they had to end this farce was one of the best things I have seen in 10 years of EVE. > [@Nevyn\_Auscent](#): > > And there are plenty of other MMO’s out there that people who don’t like CCP’s changes can go and play, if that dislike is strong enough. You don’t get it, do you? Rhetoric question, of course. Since you argument exactly as CCP does, you would of course not see how wrong you are. ---
**Author:** ![RealEchnaton](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/realechnaton/32/243119_2.png) [@RealEchnaton](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/RealEchnaton)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/384 "2020-12-29T12:32:14Z")
> [@Ramona\_McCandless](#): > > > [@Richard\_Fellinger](#): > > > > I hope CCP learns, one way or another, that the customer is always right > > Unless you like being lied to, this was never true. Boss: We should do , what the customer wants. Customer: We want all without delay without any costs. Boss: o.k., we should find another way ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/385 "2020-12-29T13:19:16Z")
If they have chased after every customer, what have they done to retain you? ---
**Author:** ![Makshima\_Shogo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/makshima_shogo/32/247769_2.png) [@Makshima\_Shogo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Makshima_Shogo)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/386 "2020-12-29T13:26:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Fellinger](#): > > customer is always right This is 100% not true, CCP are the specialists and have years of experience, the customers thoughts must be heard by CCP, but it is the biggest mistake to do exactly as a customer says as they are usually 1 dimensional and lack any ability to see things from different perspectives 80% of the time. And this applies to all companies, you get customers phoning in and asking the most retarded things where everyone in the office is like WTF and laughs. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/387 "2020-12-29T13:56:16Z")
Tell me how I can make risk free ISK in Povchen in my Hecate and I will happily do? The problem is rather that it is the only none cloaky combat ship being able to roam without dying in instalock (NPC) gatecamps. Hecate was and is trash tier, slow speed, brawl, no tank, ridiculous short projection. Useless for serious PvE. It’s only value over other T3Ds is the quick align option. Remember instawarp was a feature of all T3Ds before the nerf. Jackdaws as a long range projection platform is another story though … ---
**Author:** ![Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/zhalyd_lyehin/32/358574_2.png) [@Zhalyd\_Lyehin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Zhalyd_Lyehin)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/388 "2020-12-29T14:53:25Z")
Create a game and than benefit from a stroke of luck or a miracle or divine intervention that made it so that no one else did something remotely similar. I used to play X but it lacks some things I appreciate in moderation in EVE. ---
**Author:** ![Ramona\_McCandless](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ramona_mccandless/32/468438_2.png) [@Ramona\_McCandless](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ramona_McCandless)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/389 "2020-12-29T15:11:18Z")
Thats fair, and I too have a fondness for X. Between X, EvE and Elite there are definately pieces to make one outstanding game, but its not a pth CCP seems to wish to tread. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/390 "2020-12-29T15:32:20Z")
> [@Penance\_Toralen](#): > > It’s come a long way from _here to ruin your_ game to “we cried out to save it”. Yeah, amazing what happens when the guy who made the ‘here to ruin _your_ game’ claim hasn’t actually run Goonswarm for over ten years, huh? Yes, Mynnna advised CCP about mineral distribution in 2014, under a considerably different mining paradigm. But 2014 didn’t _have_ a mineral redistribution. That was moon goo, in _2013_, when CCP introduced alchemy as well. Remember why? Because of OTEC. Because CCP wanted to break up the Organization of Technetium-Exporting Coalitions, which included the CFC, PanFam, xDeath, and to the extent that they _had_ tech moons in the south, the HBC. You think there was a natural throttle to the growth of mega-coalitions? The natural throttle was _competition_. As the number of people willing to _lead_ nullsec coalitions at the major bloc level slowly thinned, the number of coalitions dropped and groups consolidated. It wasn’t minerals. And that thinning, too, is a natural process. Running a large alliance is _work_, and people burn out on it. The biggest advantage Goonswarm has had is our leadership structure, which lets teams of specialists run different departments, promote assistants, groom successors, etc. Just in the time since the 2013 Battle of Asakai, for example, the Imperium’s Recon SIG has gone through at least 6 department heads. I might be forgetting one, but I don’t think so. Point is, without the structure to allow that, that’s churn at the alliance leadership level. Which is what happened to a lot of other groups. Gentlemen’s Agreement (GLEE) lost their leadership, for example, around the same time Li3 Federation (LI3) was suffering a large downturn in activity. Mittens was able to see both problems as halves of their own solution, and that’s where The Bastion comes from. Groups like Atlas Alliance, Mordu’s Angels, and at least 2 iterations of Triumvirate and PIZZA each, weren’t so lucky. -AAA- had a similar fate. When those groups fail, their members _go somewhere_. Usually to allied groups or groups that have demonstrated competence over time. So those groups grow. Similarly, after the Casino War, one of the big limitations of Aegis sov became apparent: only the people owning the space can effectively defend it. Other folks can fleet up, but really, you want the largest possible pool of defensive hackers you can get. So we opened the doors of GSF to any Imperium alliance members who wanted to join… _because of strategic combat mechanics_, not because of mineral distribution or anything stupid like that. Societal groups grow and consolidate, over time. Villages become towns become cities become city-states become nation-states. That’s what human beings _do_. MMO timescales are accelerated because we have instant communication and a combination of player churn (which accelerates the cycle that RL only sees in life expectency) and player _retention_ (which solidifies a degree of institutional memory and ‘traditional’ friendships). As for warnings? We do those in public, not in the CSM minutes. In 2014, we were telling CCP how bad drone assist could be… and then we went out and demonstrated it with fleets of Dominixes, or carriers, all assisting a single interceptor with a target painter. > [@Penance\_Toralen](#): > > 29k members under one banner, when in a game which prides itself on conflict, could be 5 x 6k in overlapping wars. It could, yeah. But when there’s outside pressure from _150k_, why would we? > [@Penance\_Toralen](#): > > It would be a challenge to see mechanics in game which groups over membership exceeding 6k would produce rapid diminishing returns in near hyperbola rates. I would curious to see CCP comment, though I do not expect it. It’d be ineffectual. As we’ve said many times (and actively planned for as far back as I’ve been in Goons), we could just split into GSF, GSF2, GSF3, GSF4, etc, with all the same people in charge of all of them. Large groups have the advantage of being able to self-organize into smaller groups as circumstances require. That’s why we started our Special Interest Groups, which TEST and Horde have copied. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/391 "2020-12-29T16:34:05Z")
You know the reason why super large groups can exist in EvE, is perfect intel and control on each char via out of game means. Take this away, and groups would not become bigger than people can personally know and trust each other. ---
**Author:** ![leavwiz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/leavwiz/32/235353_2.png) [@leavwiz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/leavwiz)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/392 "2020-12-29T17:00:43Z")
i still think the agency providing clear direction to ESS with isk and a “set destination” button seems to fly in the face of “hunting”. At least the dotlan approach requires hunters to actually go to systems to find prey with only the hope that something is there. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/393 "2020-12-29T17:34:05Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > groups would not become bigger than people can personally know and trust each other. Organized groups would just come up with alternative ways to perform checks on players. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/394 "2020-12-29T17:47:06Z")
Personal video interviews, signing RL contracts? Lol. Whatever you come up with outside of CCP free data will not scale or be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/395 "2020-12-29T17:48:39Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Whatever you come up with outside of CCP free data will not scale or be legal. Corporations already do interviews with prospective members and it’s scaled fine. I’m curious what you’re trying to imply with the “will not be legal” part though. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/396 "2020-12-29T17:50:21Z")
Nobody stops you from telling a “story” in interviews. With legal I mean RL spying / doxxing people, or hacking their accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/397 "2020-12-29T17:51:11Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > With legal I mean RL spying / doxxing people. lmao what? > [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Nobody stops you from telling a “story” in interviews. …and? nothing stops them from doing this **now** and we’re doing fine. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/398 "2020-12-29T17:51:43Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > Take this away Take away the ability to communicate outside of the game? Sure. You know what would also prevent large groups, and is _just_ as possible? Take away the ability for EVE players to breathe oxygen, and you wouldn’t see large groups, either. ‘Perfect intel’, btw? No. That’s not part of what enables large groups. What enables large groups is 100% the mere existence of _existence_ outside of EVE online. When a tree fell on Asher’s house, he called Mittens to let him know. ZOMG! Perfect intel!! It’s _communication_ outside of the client. You know, _like we’re doing here_. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/399 "2020-12-29T17:53:40Z")
People can communicate outside whatever they want, as long as they have full control what, when, and how they communicate. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/400 "2020-12-29T17:54:58Z")
And that’s not going to change, or is it any different among the players of any other game. So consider that part of the landscape that modern gaming exists in, and not something that CCP should, or even _can_, address. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=18) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=20)