# The EVE Online Ecosystem Outlook **URL:** \ **Category:** Dev Blogs\ **Tags:** feedback, official\ **Created:** [December 27, 2020, 11:25am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097 "2020-12-27T11:25:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Luis\_Magalhaes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luis_magalhaes/32/226103_2.png) [@Luis\_Magalhaes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luis_Magalhaes)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/41 "2020-12-27T16:08:23Z")
Congratulations on destroying Eve … you are well on your way. By the way, it’s kind of weird when you do more isk in high sec than in null sec … something is wrong … The next time you want to “rebalance” the game, try taking off the stupid skill injectors… ups, kinda late for that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/42 "2020-12-27T16:08:52Z")
Yup. Definitely too late. It’s a core part of the business model. ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/43 "2020-12-27T16:09:59Z")
> Address one of the most debated subjects in EVE, AFK cloaky camping, with improved systems to get rid of the frustration of AFK cloaking and its total lack of counterplay without removing the ability for hunters to catch lazy prey, or for spies to be able to scout and monitor systems with strategic value. I wonder what the counterplay to AFK cloaking would be. Counterplay to a single AFK cloaky is easy: just pretend to be busy in space and have your ship fit sub-optimally for ratting and optimally against the cloaky camper to bait him into a fight you may win. Counterplay to AFK cloaky intel gatherers is easy as well: just don’t undock your shiny toys or fleet until you’re ready to fight. The main lack of counter is against an AFK cloaky with cyno. To bait an AFK cloaky with cyno you need to have a fleet of your own proportional to the attacking fleet to be on standby while you pretend to rat for hours until the AFK cloaky comes back to the keyboard and cynos in their fleet. The counterplay is possible, but the requirement of having a bait fleet on standby for hours while the AFK cloaky may actually be AFK is disproportionate. A simple anti-AFK cloaking measure would be to slowly leak liquid ozone when a cyno is equipped and the ship is cloaked up, enough to last a couple of hours and still light a cyno, but not enough to cyno in a fleet after half a day of cloaky camping. This single change would allow cloaky hunters to cyno in their fleet without issue (which is pretty fun in my own experience) and would still allow solo cloaky hunters to AFK all day and get a jump on someone just like now (which is something I still want to try sometimes), and would still allow intel gathering with AFK cloaked ships - all the things that I think shouldn’t change about AFK cloaking. AFK cloaking is nice and should stay, to some extent. The only issue is the disproportionate countermeasures necessary against an AFK cloaky cyno ship. ---
**Author:** ![Evie\_Kouvo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evie_kouvo/32/435464_2.png) [@Evie\_Kouvo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evie_Kouvo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/44 "2020-12-27T16:11:07Z")
Please, what ever you do, wormhole space is dying. Please, please, please stop bleed before its too late. ---
**Author:** ![xSpanisH](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/xspanish/32/248238_2.png) [@xSpanisH](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/xSpanisH)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/45 "2020-12-27T16:11:43Z")
X2… Marauders? ---
**Author:** ![Luis\_Magalhaes](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/luis_magalhaes/32/226103_2.png) [@Luis\_Magalhaes](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Luis_Magalhaes)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/46 "2020-12-27T16:14:32Z")
It’s not just wh space… go to null sec ;). It’s empty as f\*\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Daro\_Mozu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daro_mozu/32/184030_2.png) [@Daro\_Mozu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daro_Mozu)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/47 "2020-12-27T16:15:34Z")
> [@DeMichael\_Crimson](#): > > Tired of hearing about AFK Cloaky Camping. If somebody is AFK, then they’re not at the keyboard. All those players that constantly complain about AFK Cloaky Campers need to harden up and start flying with a fleet. Tired of hearing from campers to “handen up” when they are more risk averse than the filthiest nullsec/highsec ratter. Harden up, my boy, actually do something instead of hitting that “f1 to cloak” button and winning. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/48 "2020-12-27T16:15:58Z")
> [@Gerard\_Amatin](#): > > Counterplay to a single AFK cloaky is easy > > The main lack of counter is against an AFK cloaky with cyno. Now: which kind of cloaky is that guy whose ship you never see, who doesn’t actually speak in local even when he’s at the keys? Rather than an LO-leak (which, let’s face it, makes very little sense since that’s exactly the kind of ‘well, plug the hole’ problem that would quickly be fixed by engineers across the cluster), why not have the cloak consume resources? Maybe _it_ eats LO, regardless of the presence of a cyno. Maybe it uses isotopes, so now that cloaky cyno has less cargo space for LO. Maybe there are structures in the system that can emit a pulse that turns off cloaks, but take 4-8h to recharge and impact friendly cloaks, too. There’s a lot of potential options. BTW, that ‘not enough to cyno in a fleet after half a day of cloaky camping’… yeah, no. You just leave the cloaked cyno logged off and run your eyes on another alt. ---
**Author:** ![Totchibana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/totchibana/32/296780_2.png) [@Totchibana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Totchibana)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/49 "2020-12-27T16:16:12Z")
If you cloak and play, your playing. CCP is talking about goonswarm members who log 150 clients on and camp 150 systems ALLL day for 7 months straight. CLEARLY they arnt talking about you cloaked playing. There is no way to ‘‘harden up’’ 24/7. ‘‘focusing your attention on Null Sec and their endless supply of ISK’’ CLEARLY your new and HATE end game content or a lowsec sucker. Null builds everything you use sir. ---
**Author:** ![Totchibana](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/totchibana/32/296780_2.png) [@Totchibana](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Totchibana)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/50 "2020-12-27T16:18:32Z")
dude. stfu. There is no COUNTER to 150 goons camping 150 systems for 7 months 24/7 and drop 200 lokis. STFU. WE WANT CLOAKING DEAD. you must make alot of money doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/51 "2020-12-27T16:19:09Z")
> [@Totchibana](#): > > CCP is talking about goonswarm members who log 150 clients on and camp 150 systems ALLL day for 7 months straight. AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH. You mean like the ‘CCTV’ guy who’s had eyes in every system in Delve for more than 18 months? Don’t go blaming this on _us_, binky. Our cloaky campers tend to run 1 or maybe 2 clients. The real industrial operations out there are run by the same guys botting happily in the Northeast. ---
**Author:** ![Orca\_Platypus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/orca_platypus/32/248437_2.png) [@Orca\_Platypus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Orca_Platypus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/52 "2020-12-27T16:19:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > First, on the IHUBs: What they’ve said on-stream when they weren’t being careful indicated that they really are looking for better IHUB customization, like ‘_This_ system will be spod-rich, and the one next door will have lots of Gneiss’. …and not both, and you need to do this, and that, and buy some plex to make it happen. There you go, nerfbat. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And the Reserve Bank keys aren’t going to provide disincentive to ratting—that money’s already gone, from the ratter’s POV. It’s not paying out to the ratters. What it will do is provide alliances more reason to defend. After all, that money can essentially replace ratting taxes… **if** the alliance can get it. So the really high-traffic systems, even with a low DBS multiplier, will be worth working to secure. There is no way to secure MESS at current balance, hence there is no way to secure reserve bank. This is a reason why nobody is ratting. > [@Arrendis](#): > > In fact, because a portion of the bounty reduction from the DBS goes to the reserve bank, the ones with the lowest multipliers will be the ones _most_ worth securing. That’s where the money will consistently be, which lets alliances focus on those areas. Even though it means lower individual payouts, the collective benefits may _seriously_ outweigh any pressure to spread out or move around. Unless you bot, you got nothing to secure. If you bot, who’s gonna secure it? > [@Arrendis](#): > > And no… procedural generation of resources across the game doesn’t benefit bots. I trust cfccp to find a way to make it benefit bots. They proven determined and committed to this patch in 2020. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Also, I think you’re misinterpreting what they mean by ‘revisiting high-risk income platforms’. If they’re saying those platforms are high-risk, they may be looking at ways to make it _worth_ the risk. Like I said above, the way reasonable people define risk and the way cfccp define risk is very different. The only risk they care about is the risk of not making you buy plex, or the risk of the one who they are presenting you to as content. You are irrelevant to them. If you wanna quit, bot will replace you nicely. > [@Arrendis](#): > > And Rorqs _need_ a sustainable role, but let’s face it, the right role is hard to do without also making it _the_ centerpiece of an invasion. Because the big advantage of the Rorq was never its yield (though that was too high), it was its _mobility_. If Rorqs mine exactly as much as Procurers do, you’ll still see people preferring Rorqs, because they can jump direct to the moon-field and then directly out to the refinery. ISK/time isn’t the determining metric, it’s ISK/effort. You have it backwards, because pretty much nobody used Rorqs anymore. Their “mobility” never meant a thing because you NEVER mine away from your industrial base. They are currently completely useless, and that’s why cfccp thinks orcas need to be made useless as well. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/54 "2020-12-27T16:24:04Z")
> [@Orca\_Platypus](#): > > …and not both, and you need to do this, and that, and buy some plex to make it happen. And not both, that’s right. So what? As for ‘and buy some plex’… if there’s no ISK flying around, there’s nobody to _sell_ your PLEX to once you buy them from CCP. Get a clue, man. If everyone buys PLEX from CCP, then nobody can sell them to one another. CCP needs PLEX to _move_ through the ecosystem, or it’s worthless. > [@Orca\_Platypus](#): > > There is no way to secure MESS at current balance, HEHEHEHEHEHEEHEEHEHEHEHEHEEHEH. Ok. You need to play with the mechanics more. 😉 The reason nobody’s ratting is because _ratting_ isn’t safe, not because the ESS can’t be locked down by smart gameplay. But no, I’m not going to explain how to do it in public. > [@Orca\_Platypus](#): > > You have it backwards, because pretty much nobody used Rorqs anymore. Nobody uses Rorqs anymore because they’re mostly operating in highsec, where Rorqs can’t go, or staying in a single place, where that mobility isn’t needed. Without this war, we’d still be locusting moons in 3+ regions, and we would _definitely_ be using Rorqs for that. ---
**Author:** ![Orca\_Platypus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/orca_platypus/32/248437_2.png) [@Orca\_Platypus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Orca_Platypus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/55 "2020-12-27T16:26:27Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > HEHEHEHEHEHEEHEEHEHEHEHEHEEHEH. Ok. You need to play with the mechanics more. A gank that is bigger than amount of players in your alliance filaments into the system. Please do tell me what kind of “mechanics” are there for me to counter that. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/56 "2020-12-27T16:31:24Z")
> [@Orca\_Platypus](#): > > A gank that is bigger than amount of players in your alliance filaments into the system. Please do tell me what kind of “mechanics” are there for me to counter that. Well, first, you should probably get an alliance bigger than 25 people. Also, just for the record: > [@Orca\_Platypus](#): > > Their “mobility” never meant a thing because you NEVER mine away from your industrial base. You absolutely _do_. You keep all your main production and refining centralized in a defensible position, while mining all over the damned place. And we’d still be doing exactly that if not for a massive goddamned war. A war, I should note here where I know @CCP_Dopamine can and will ignore it, that has **nothing to do with scarcity**. Nothing. This war is about grudges, politics, and Vily and Piggles’ egos. That’s it. Scarcity, in fact, has threatened to _shut down_ the war, several times over, as people have to scrape up the cash to keep fighting. So, good jorb, CCP, you’re actively disproving your own axioms. ---
**Author:** ![Daro\_Mozu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/daro_mozu/32/184030_2.png) [@Daro\_Mozu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Daro_Mozu)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/57 "2020-12-27T16:35:21Z")
> When combined with data and feedback that is regularly collected from the entire EVE Online community, it’s been possible to follow up quickly on key changes such as the reverting of the “Aggressive” setting on drone behavior. Don´t you dare. We all know how many times players realy needed your attention to problems, but the only instances when CCP actually acted fast were massive whine from grinders: afk drone krabs and abyssal runners in highsec. > - Improve customization of player-owned space through iHub upgrades, allowing meaningful choices and trade-offs. Thank you, i hope that if we can chose what to install and if we want to make a sertain constellation into a land of spod and nothing more - we will. Although i hope that you will look into how Entrapment Arrays and wormhole detection ones work. > Continue to balance risk and reward I want to believe. > Address one of the most debated subjects in EVE, AFK cloaky camping Hm, let me quote you on that one: > When combined with **data and feedback that is regularly collected** from the entire EVE Online community, it’s been possible to follow up _ **quickly** _ on key changes such as the reverting of the “Aggressive” setting on drone behavior. It took you only how many years? I have nothing else to say on that one. > Further define the differences between the five categories of space Finaly. In general: looks promising, only i hope that at least _this time_ you will actually give more than zero pucks about overall balance and avoid situations that create a shitshow of a gameplay. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/58 "2020-12-27T16:40:38Z")
and oh yeah, thanks for the reminder, @Orca_Platypus! I need to run around and collect all my Nov/early December ESS loot from asset safety in lowsec so I can go sell it off. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Orca\_Platypus](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/orca_platypus/32/248437_2.png) [@Orca\_Platypus](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Orca_Platypus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/59 "2020-12-27T16:41:34Z")
Also, a note on CSM. There were always 2 possibilities. 1. Changes are discussed with CSM, CSM gets an advantage, and becomes a game where you have to vote your members in just to vote opponent members out. This is “harmful” CSM. 2. Changes are not discussed with CSM. That leads to extremely harmful changes seeping into the game before CSM can start screaming bloody murder about dafuq you were even thinking, and this makes situation harmful, and CSM useless. This is “useless-harmful” CSM. The transition from harmful to useless-harmful has been made and shown us once again that the best transition would be to ABOLISH CSM ALTOGETHER, as it is harmful on average, and useless at best. ---
**Author:** ![Jxom\_Ruatha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jxom_ruatha/32/248248_2.png) [@Jxom\_Ruatha](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jxom_Ruatha)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/60 "2020-12-27T16:42:15Z")
When 25 bombers get dropped on a single ratting Ishtar, the entire premise of covert ops cynos has reached the absurd level. The cloaky campers have the stated intention of reducing the ADM of the target system, in order to make the system easier to entosis. Added to this that covert cynos get around cyno jammers. The fuel (LO leak) concept would possibly have benefit, except that the covert cyno can portal in a blops with more fuel, at whatever frequency is required. It’s not simple, and it’s not working they way it is right now. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 4:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097/61 "2020-12-27T16:46:44Z")
You have no idea whether or not the CSM has been instrumental in preventing much, much worse moves by CCP by telling them ‘this is colossally stupid’—which is what they’re actually for. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=2) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-eve-online-ecosystem-outlook/287097.md?page=4)