# The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424 "2018-04-18T05:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/222 "2018-04-22T16:15:26Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > By actively arguing against the only possible salvation our people might have a chance for. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > only you and yours, who hem, haw and cower before what must be done if our people are to stand any chance at all. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Droplets aren’t going to erode this mountain. They won’t wash it away, before the rockslide finally buries all. Actively working against unleashing the torrent we have, only serves to hasten our end. Of course a few individuals here and there tries to do what little can be done, but it will never be enough until we all rise up and go to war. And the voices of you and yours are trying so very hard to prevent that. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > They are. By working against the only hope they and we have, they’re in effect abandoning them. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > You are getting very angry for someone who came in here on the attack, aimed for specific people. I have not attacked my people. You have. Also, repeating what you say ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > There was no trust to begin with. What I sow is criticism and a little bit of discord. I speak up for my people, who need to know that someone still remembers, both among capsuleers and baseliners. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. > [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Keep betting on miracles, and sooner or later you’ll roll snake eyes. No biggie, the stakes are merely all of our people. That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/223 "2018-04-22T16:18:48Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > … as for Arrendis, I am honestly unsure what her game is. I don’t know if you’re aware, but we are hardly on speaking terms. If she has truly come around to anything similar to my thinking, I highly doubt it’s to my credit, as we’re largely antagonistic in nature. Only from one side. But no, my change in perspective isn’t because of you. A mutual friend, though, did start me down this path, and I still perfectly well understand the viewpoint of ‘if it was just me, I’d say start shooting now, but there are innocent children I don’t have the right to put at risk’. I just think those innocent children, once they’re reasoning adults, wouldn’t much appreciate being the cause of the suffering of others. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:21pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/224 "2018-04-22T16:21:14Z")
It is easy to flap your gums about the suffering of trillions, isn’t it? A nice tool to put down everyone who don’t dance to your whistle, isn’t it? Kindly ■■■■ off, both of you. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/225 "2018-04-22T16:26:30Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > That is your opinion you’ve kept throwing around since I don’t know when. Repeating it ad nauseum does not make it true. Of course it’s my opinion. Anything and everything I say is _my_ opinion. Should I instead switch off my brain and just spout… what, _your_ opinion? I have backed up my words, however. You still haven’t provided _any_ kind of support for your “miracle” solution. You just seem to expect that we’re supposed to… heh, ‘dance to your whistle’, then get vitriolic if we don’t. Add some actual substance to support your stance, and I’d almost accuse you of growing a spine. > [@Teinyhr](#): > > It is easy to flap your gums about the suffering of trillions, isn’t it? A nice tool to put down everyone who don’t dance to your whistle, isn’t it? Much easier to ignore it, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/226 "2018-04-22T16:37:54Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > Much easier to ignore it, huh? I DON’T IGNORE IT. THAT’S THE THING. But you keep saying I do. That everyone does. Nothing I do or say ever seems to be enough for you. Guess how interested I am sharing details with someone who is such a negative black hole where anykind of co-operation or just - taking someone for their word cannot escape? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/227 "2018-04-22T16:42:35Z")
I should take you at your word then, when your word preaches appeasement and hoping for miracles? ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/228 "2018-04-22T16:43:29Z")
I’m not sure what you preach would require any fewer miracles. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/229 "2018-04-22T16:44:21Z")
If you find a better option, I do remain all ears. I have heard none yet. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/230 "2018-04-22T16:47:08Z")
Well, I am a big fan of not alienating those who would otherwise be your allies. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/231 "2018-04-22T16:48:56Z")
> [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](#): > > I should take you at your word then, when your word preaches appeasement and hoping for miracles? And here you go again, ignoring everything I’ve said in favour of your own interpretation. I’ve tried to explain my intentions, I’ve tried to understand you, but apparently for naught - any sign of open endedness or compromise on my part is viciously attacked and used against me. This is not a discussion, this is you dictating how everyone and everything is. ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/232 "2018-04-22T17:09:13Z")
I am not ignoring what you’ve said. I just haven’t seen anything in it that’s got any real substance, just wishful thinking and baseless claims. You have to keep in mind, you’re not talking to younglings and fools. These viewpoints, opinions and stances have developed over a very long time, and have endured and adapted to countless counters. Some have been strong enough to force change in those views and opinions, strengthening the result. It takes something substantive to shift a stance that has undergone this many iterations. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/233 "2018-04-22T17:22:26Z")
You know, I’m willing to admit that the invocation of ‘trillions’ might feel like it’s being used as a trump card, so I’ve changed it. I still don’t think those innocent children would countenance being used as the rationale for _anyone_ being left in anguish. I know I wouldn’t have. Would you? ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/234 "2018-04-22T17:51:30Z")
My issue here is this; You, or at the very least Mizhara, make this whole issue very binary. You are either an appeaser or you’re not. Abandoner of kin, or not. The hottest goddamn freedom fighter, or not. That something is inevitable or it is not. It is very tiring to argue against the desert - that which constantly changes, yet always stays the same. So I give up. I declare you winners of this discussion. That’s what you wanted, is it not? > [@Arrendis](#): > > I still don’t think those innocent children would countenance being used as the rationale for anyone being left in anguish. I know I wouldn’t have. Would you? As for this, you’re imposing on me difficult moral choices like they are yes or no answers, and I suspect, neither of them would be the “correct” one. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/235 "2018-04-22T18:18:16Z")
I didn’t know discussions were about ‘winning’. Nor have I used words like ‘appeaser’. Mizhara and I may be on _roughly_ the same side of the issue of ‘patience vs action’, but we’re hardly thinking in lockstep. As I said, I understand a lot of the reasoning behind counselling patience. For example: Small-scale, highly visible aggression like the Elder Fleet (and really, by current standards it’s incredibly small-scale) may work against our interests. The only sure way to achieve freedom for all Matari is to convince the Empire to give up on slavery. That’s a diplomatic solution, and it’s one many people aim for. But attacks like the Elder Fleet make the Empire dig in, become reactive, and reactive never means cooperative. So violence will only make achieving the diplomatic solution more and more difficult. At the same time, wider violence runs the risk of catastrophic failure. The Federation likely wouldn’t assist us in a war of aggression, and if it’s just us, the State likely wouldn’t even _need_ to assist the Empire. We’d probably lose. We’d probably lose, and those who survived would likely be snapped up and enslaved, because without us, the Federation doesn’t have enough power (military or political) to stop it, and the State wouldn’t have any reason to care. It could well mean our utter destruction as a people. I get that. I understand it, I do. It’s a matter of ‘least bad choice among a buffet of terrible options’. And if I still thought a diplomatic solution could _work_, I’d likely still be on that side of things, myself. But I don’t. I don’t think it can work because I don’t think there’s anywhere near enough pressure available to us to convince the Empire to abandon slavery. The pressure we _can_ bring to bear, we already _are_, and it hasn’t even stopped the Empire from conducting slave raids. So what we can do, diplomatically? It’s not working. In part, it’s not working because there’s no stick to complement the carrot of ‘lasting peace’. We have no leverage. That’s why I advocate a massive military buildup, with all of the industrial and commercial infrastructure expansion that entails. It’s why I advocate moving to a war footing, and letting the Empire see that we’re moving in that direction. There is no way the Republic doesn’t have a full TO&E for the Imperial Navy. It’s not like organizational charts are a difficult thing for spies to wrangle, at the very least. So look at their rate of expansion, set a time-frame for parity, and then make the investments needed to make that happen. While that’s happening… mercenaries. Hire capsuleer mercs to go after Imperial assets. CONCORD won’t stop us. Only the Navies will challenge us for blowing up Navy ships. I don’t mean in Republic space. I don’t mean ‘interdict the slaver raids’. I mean use a cutout or six if you need to, but send them in. And while they’re doing that, send in other, more covert mercs to get slaves out. Do it on a massive scale, the kind of scale the Empire _has_ to respond to… … and when they do, they have to deal with the capsuleer mercs. It’s not a recipe for instant success… it’s a plan for long-term destabilization and chaos while we position ourselves to be able to fight the real war on even footing. It’s not even likely to actually get done. But pushing it forces people to _examine_ it, to think of why it won’t work, and argue against it. Which means presenting the problems… so the plan can be improved. And if _enough_ people start talking about it, then the Empire has to weigh ‘is the potential of this worth enough to consider literally changing nothing but whether or not our Matari labor can quit their jobs?’[1] After all, they already have to have their needs met, or they can’t keep working. Shifting from ‘I’ll buy you stuff and give it to you’ to ‘here’s money, buy your own stuff’ isn’t really as large an economic shift as people think. 1. Yes, I’m well aware that this is a vast and grossly excessive oversimplification. My point is that at the level of _Imperial_ consideration, as opposed to House or individual Holders’ policies, it really is a yes/no decision for them: are these _slaves_ or _subjects_? (I mean, we’ll just ignore the fact that doctrinally, to be in compliance with the Imperial Rite is to functionally be a slave to the Throne.) ---
**Author:** ![Arnulf\_Ogunkoya](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arnulf_ogunkoya/32/380841_2.png) [@Arnulf\_Ogunkoya](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arnulf_Ogunkoya)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/236 "2018-04-22T18:56:14Z")
For all that I disagree with Mizhara Del’thul on many things I am getting somewhat annoyed at seeing Matari, of all people, use the term slave-child as an insult. My father was a slave-child. Today he is an officer of the Republic’s armed forces and a Clan Chieftain. If anyone used that phrase about him in that way to my face they would be feeling the edge of my knife soon thereafter. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/237 "2018-04-22T18:57:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I didn’t know discussions were about ‘winning’. Certainly feels like so when everything _I_ say is wrong - not even worth considering if something I say has some merit - because after all I’m a freeborn appeaser kin abandoner and whatever other insults she cooked up. And when I finally lose my temper about being insulted, ignored and spoken for without my own input for the better part of my day, people trot it around like that’s what they wanted all along. In fact, I should know better; This isn’t the first time I’m locked in these types of discussions with you or Mizhara, and that’s how it feels like both of you tend to operate. You tire people out by making claims that are impossible to refute without twenty or so paragraphs, and when someone isn’t willing to entertain either of you, especially on the account that Mizhara is an insufferable twat, you then silently claim victory with only your opinions left standing as everyone else has already given up debating you. Point of discussions is to exchange ideas and come to conclusions, perhaps compromises - of which I tried to come to, several times, but my extended hand was not once taken. But people who want to win don’t make compromises. Compromising is weak and spineless, as has been said by certain someone. * * * As for the rest of what you said, I actually agree for the most part. If only people had started with something like this instead of assuming that just because I prefer diplomatic solutions I would never take up the gun again. There are causes and reasons that I would do that for, gladly. * * * > [@Arnulf\_Ogunkoya](#): > > For all that I disagree with Mizhara Del’thul on many things I am getting somewhat annoyed at seeing Matari, of all people, use the term slave-child as an insult. > > My father was a slave-child. Today he is an officer of the Republic’s armed forces and a Clan Chieftain. If anyone used that phrase about him in that way to my face they would be feeling the edge of my knife soon thereafter. If a slave-child starts throwing freeborn at my face as an insult, I respond in kind, no? Originally I did shy away from using it out of respect for her circumstances, but I evidently don’t need to respect someone who does not respect me. I would not use such an insult towards your father, obviously, unless he starts to spit on my freeborn kin for being, well, freeborn. ---
**Author:** ![Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/constantly_outraged_sebiestor/32/417519_2.png) [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Constantly_Outraged_Sebiestor)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/238 "2018-04-22T19:01:07Z")
> [@Arnulf\_Ogunkoya](#): > > the term slave-child as an insult It seems people are using both slave-child, and free-born, as insults. Or at least, in a snide way. ---
**Author:** ![Teinyhr](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/teinyhr/32/374406_2.png) [@Teinyhr](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Teinyhr)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/239 "2018-04-22T19:02:30Z")
> [@Constantly\_Outraged\_Sebiestor](#): > > It seems people are using both slave-child, and free-born, as insults. Or at least, in a snide way. They are insults, depending on the speaker and how it is said. They can be used in a friendly manner, but I can assure you that I didn’t use them in such a way in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/240 "2018-04-22T19:02:31Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > And we’re all Matari, > [@Arrendis](#): > > don’t think there is a single ‘Minmatar’ ethnicity So you’re all Matari, just not Minmatar? ---
**Author:** ![Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mizhara_del_thul/32/486150_2.png) [@Mizhara\_Del\_thul](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mizhara_Del_thul)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/241 "2018-04-22T19:04:28Z")
> [@Teinyhr](#): > > They are insults, depending on the speaker and how it is said. They can be used in a friendly manner, but I can assure you that I did use them in such a way in this thread. Funnily enough, I didn’t. I merely used it to give a reason for why some things apparently won’t be understood. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=11) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=13)