# The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424 "2018-04-18T05:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 3:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/302 "2018-04-28T03:11:57Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > This is patently untrue. The State’s obligations to abide by Yulai are not solely to the Federation, but to the Empire, Republic, SoCT (as successors to the Jove) and CONCORD as well. To claim that the State is no longer obligated to abide by the treaties would mean the State is no longer a party to them. In which case, the State is no longer entitled to the protections of the Yulai Conventions, and CONCORD should reduce their operating costs by no longer protecting Caldari space from Capsuleer aggression. Okkkkkkay, maybe I have stated my thought not clear enough. In fact, I was referencing a CEWMPA treaty, not Yulai conventions - though, the Federation and Republic do violate them. On first violation by Federation we have replied with our own violation and liberated our homeworld back. But on the second violation by Federation we haven’t answered yet. So, tell me, why we should let these subhumans violate the treaty without consequences?.. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Tell me, how successful is CalMil at defending the State’s taxes every year when the annual Burn events happen? What burn? ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/303 "2018-04-28T03:20:56Z")
> [@Calliste\_Vausienne](#): > > As such, how you or others may feel inferior vis-a-vis the Federation is your own prerogative. If you wish to discuss your own feelings I might suggest a counselor or perhaps a group therapy session on, “I am upset by the Gallente due to a fragile ego.” Unfortunately, I do not have enough concern for your own feelings to warrant them the attention you might feel they are due. Well, I probably could discuss my feelings - which mostly will be just pity to your person, but it’s really not among my interests, nor I know what to discuss about it. I am Caldari, I am interested in discussing facts and conclusions, making observations, noticing convergences and everything that I can use later for one reason or another. And about “being upset”, “having fragile ego”, again, I repeat, I am Caldari and I don’t have psychological problems like Federals do. You know, here in the State, only about 5% of soldiers (if not less) need and visit psychological counselling. While, on other hand, I have seen somewhere that in the Federation it is about 95% of military personnel who regularly visit psychologists. I am proud to be Caldari, I am proud to be mentally healthy and I am proud I don’t need any psychological counselling. So, thus, please stop bothering me with Federal mental illnesses. They are not applicable to us. Go use them, if you need them, but if you need them - it doesn’t mean I have problems like you. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/304 "2018-04-28T03:26:46Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Okkkkkkay, maybe I have stated my thought not clear enough. In fact, I was referencing a CEWMPA treaty, not Yulai conventions - though, the Federation and Republic do violate them. The CEWMPA was a Directive enacted CONCORD. It is not a separate treaty. The Empires did not negotiate and ratify it through their various governments, they did so through CONCORD’s executive council. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > So, tell me, why we should let these subhumans violate the treaty without consequences?.. A)Calling them ‘subhuman’ is beneath you, Diana. Don’t stoop to that level of filth. B)You shouldn’t. But those consequences should come through the framework through which the State has agreed to resolve international disputes: CONCORD. > [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > What burn? Maybe you should look into what predation is going on while you’re playing your bloodsports… 800B in shipping destroyed in Jita, Perimeter, New Caldari, etc in 3 days this year, 750B+ last year, etc… I wonder how much more shipping simply doesn’t _happen_ during those windows. Market fees and taxes lost, all of it. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/305 "2018-04-28T03:59:20Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The CEWMPA was a Directive enacted CONCORD. It is not a separate treaty. The Empires did not negotiate and ratify it through their various governments, they did so through CONCORD’s executive council. In anyway, Federals broke it and must pay for it. > [@Arrendis](#): > > A)Calling them ‘subhuman’ is beneath you, Diana. Don’t stoop to that level of filth. That is not a filth, and I think I have already explained elsewhere why I use this word. In short, being subhuman means being below human - but still being “almost” human. They just lack a certain quality obligatory to human beings. Do you know what is a third principle of a sentient life? > [@Arrendis](#): > > B)You shouldn’t. But those consequences should come through the framework through which the State has agreed to resolve international disputes: CONCORD. They didn’t start to resolve dispute by CONCORD, they simply violated the treaty. Playing by rules against those, who break rules puts you into significant disadvantage and will lead to your fall. Since CONCORD didn’t act, it’s our duty to deliver the justice. > [@Arrendis](#): > > Maybe you should look into what predation is going on while you’re playing your bloodsports… 800B in shipping destroyed in Jita, Perimeter, New Caldari, etc in 3 days this year, 750B+ last year, etc… I wonder how much more shipping simply doesn’t happen during those windows. Market fees and taxes lost, all of it. You mean capsuleers bashing each other heads? Now, what we are supposed to do about it? Grab them by hand and shake finger? There’s CONCORD for that, it’s not in State’s jurisdiction. Actually, capsuleers bashing each other stimulates trade, more ships are sold, more modules. It might be a bit… rough to say, and more people die in these bloody games of these “monsters”, but more eggers kill each other, more taxes we get through Jita. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 4:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/306 "2018-04-28T04:27:34Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > Playing by rules against those, who break rules puts you into significant disadvantage and will lead to your fall. By this logic, Diana, criminals should not face trial, but only summary execution. You assert that Heth never had the chance to stand trial, so people shouldn’t act like he’d been found guilty. You can’t have it both ways. Either you insist that civilized people adhere to the rule of law, or you stop playing by the rules if someone else does, first. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 10:48am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/307 "2018-04-28T10:48:25Z")
> [@Diana\_Kim](#): > > You know, here in the State, only about 5% of soldiers (if not less) need and visit psychological counselling. While, on other hand, I have seen somewhere that in the Federation it is about 95% of military personnel who regularly visit psychologists. I would love to see some sources for those numbers. Because that seems like a fairly blatant example of the “75% of statistics are made up on the spot” rule. ---
**Author:** ![GoGo\_Yubari](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gogo_yubari/32/69554_2.png) [@GoGo\_Yubari](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/GoGo_Yubari)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/308 "2018-04-28T15:22:26Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > It does not, however, in a person’s mind who understands kin and blood, make it theirs to judge over in isolation. The blood spilled takes priority, and they have full right to request the case to be handed over. To refuse to do so is to spite their wound because “our territory” is to tell them that their grief is not an issue. It is equivalent to saying that your _honor_ (now stained by having let this happen on your watch) is more important than their grief over _a death_. > > It is, indeed, patronizing and arrogant to the extreme. > > Note that I am not saying the Republic Fleet was in the right to cross the border against a treaty over an honor dispute. It was an extremely bad strategic decision that made traitors of us and almost spinned out of control into an actual hot war. But on the level of “whose jurisdiction”, it was _justified_. > > This is one thing that the 1000-posts long thread needs to understand before it can even start dreaming to live up to the promise of peace on the subject line. If we operate solely from ideas of ‘sovereignty’ and ‘authority’ that discount tribe & kin, there cannot be a lasting peace. With anyone. The Federation is patronizing? I don’t mean to denigrate your post with my grade-a sarcasm on this issue, but welcome to the domain of yesterday. In the Federation there exists an entire bureaucracy just to perform said patronizing and that same bureaucracy is sure to scrub away all honor as it grinds its gears. Indeed, it is rich to expect honor from the Gallente - perhaps one can find singular honorable Gallente out there, but their monstrous Federation will only veil itself in honor if it happens to be in season in Luminaire (to be discarded as soon as the empty and vacuous opinion leaders they look up to turn to the latest fad). What they _will_ do instead is diffuse any sense of responsibility into the cavernous data warehouses that contain their treasure trove of red tape. The result? The finely contrived appearance of giving a damn, while producing nothing except maybe a best-selling motion picture that trivializes the entire issue, selling it’s simplistic solution to the masses while burying the complexity of the truth. But you are capsuleers. I can understand being sentimental towards your roots, and even wanting to honor them, perhaps protect them. But why turn to outdated structures and processes for solutions, when we have all the means to achieve what we want at our fingertips? What honor there is to be had will not be dished out by a bureaucracy serving the dust-speckled agenda of the planetbound, but will be extracted by Empyrean hands willing to do what it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aldrith_shutaq/32/378618_2.png) [@Aldrith\_Shutaq](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aldrith_Shutaq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/309 "2018-04-29T10:21:28Z")
So, are we any closer to the Minmatar conquest of the Federation so the patronizing roles can be reversed? ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/310 "2018-04-29T18:16:38Z")
conquest? why bother? We don’t _need_ such things unlike other groups. Not naming names. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/311 "2018-04-30T00:35:36Z")
Destruction will do! ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 2:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/312 "2018-04-30T02:46:14Z")
At this point, I’m happy with both of the two I’m referring to’s governments dieing and their more stable minded taking charge. I think you know the two… ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/313 "2018-04-30T19:28:02Z")
The fundamental root of the Gallente’s patronising behaviour can be found by examining Federal culture. Strap on your rubber boots and gas mask, we’re going to look at Federal culture ! So ! Let us examine first of all, the culture of the Mannar, one of the many peoples that formed the Federation. Now then, the Mannar were, and in many cases still are, notorious for all sorts of things, mostly related to their body painting, loud artistic expression, and other things. At the time of Gallente contact with the Mannar homeworld, they were also a mostly tribal society, and practised slavery (although unlike Amarr, they weren’t very good at it). Now then, after Gallente contact, the Mannar’s behaviour was gradually rectified to be more in line with Gallentean standardised ideals of libertarian democracy. Hmmm. Now then, let us examine the Gallentean culture itself, from their home world, Gallentia (as was the name for it in some languages.). If we examine the history of Gallente planetary society and politics, we find that in the not too distant past, Gallentia was composed of several different nation-states, which had different cultures and ideologies. Following technological developments in telecommunications, the nation states began intermingling, and international organisations were set up. And it just so happened that Garoun, the libertarian democracy, happened to be the nation whose ideology became dominant, and other nations which were resistant to these ideas, or who were deemed anachronistic, had libertarian democracy forced upon them by economic and military means by the Garoun-led “World Democracy League”, in a series of interventionist wars. Hmmmm. So, this then, is the root of Gallente patronising attitudes. They look at the Amarr, the Minmatar, the Caldari, and others, as being cultures stuck in backwards ideologies that the Gallente Federation has evolved past. They look at the Amarr, and they see the theocratic nations of old Gallentia, which were crushed by the WDL. They look at the Caldari, and see the authoritarian nation states of Gallentian history. And they look at the Minmatar, and see the (in their minds) uncivilised pre-contact Mannar. This. This is why they are patronising. Every cultural aspect that a non-Federal individual holds dear, whether it be the Scriptures, the Voluval and other tattoos, or loyalty to the Company, the Federal sees as something that the Gallente Federation has moved past, evolved away from. They see every other society as backwards and in need of Gallentean enlightenment, because _clearly_ Garoun-style libertarian democracy is _the_ ideal form for a society. And that’s why they seem patronising and arrogant. Because _they are_. ---
**Author:** ![Claudia\_Osyn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/claudia_osyn/32/387939_2.png) [@Claudia\_Osyn](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Claudia_Osyn)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/314 "2018-04-30T22:51:56Z")
> [@Valerie\_Valate](#): > > And that’s why they seem patronising and arrogant. Because they are. This might carry more weight if you were a liberal Democrat like the rest of the civilized cluster. Ever considered converting? I’d be happy to help you on your path to enlightenment. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/315 "2018-04-30T22:54:12Z")
👉🍈🍈👈 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/316 "2018-05-01T02:39:53Z")
> [@Claudia\_Osyn](#): > > This might carry more weight if you were a liberal Democrat like the rest of the civilized cluster. So civilization ends at the Federation’s borders? Please stop making me think Valerie might actually _know_ something. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/317 "2018-05-01T03:00:02Z")
The Republic is the way, but the States an extremely close second… Extremely close. ---
**Author:** ![Valerie\_Valate](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/valerie_valate/32/386231_2.png) [@Valerie\_Valate](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Valerie_Valate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 5:29am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/318 "2018-05-03T05:29:45Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > So civilization ends at the Federation’s borders? When you’re travelling _to_ the Federation, yes, it does indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/pieter_tuulinen/32/155371_2.png) [@Pieter\_Tuulinen](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Pieter_Tuulinen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/319 "2018-05-04T04:10:29Z")
My guess is that their big mistake was taking too many slaves in the initial conquest, failing to split them up fast enough and, maybe, they even maintained family units (or allowed family-like units to form) which allowed for the cross-generational transmission of cultural memes through folklore and other uncontrolled media. Once enough of a sense of Matari spirit and culture seeped into the cracks in the slave system to survive and endure (even if it got seriously twisted out of shape by time) it was far too late to try and control that slave sub-culture they’d built. One might well say that they never really controlled it - that it simply lay in wait and bided it’s time until some event weakened Amarrian vigilance. Certainly, every time they moved slave populations around after they’d allowed the seeds of the new Matari culture to germinate, they were less breaking up a population and more transplanting seedlings to new beds where their roots could dig deep. I have to say - with the usual caveat that I’m not from Amarr, so I can’t possibly understand why slavery developed as a cultural phenomenon - that I wasn’t terribly impressed with the idea of slavery when it was first explained to me, and that the more I study it, the more that first impression doesn’t change. ---
**Author:** ![Andreus\_Ixiris](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/andreus_ixiris/32/498273_2.png) [@Andreus\_Ixiris](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Andreus_Ixiris)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/320 "2018-05-06T00:50:16Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Note that I am not saying the Republic Fleet was in the right to cross the border against a treaty over an honor dispute. It was an extremely bad strategic decision that made traitors of us and almost spinned out of control into an actual hot war. Then it wasn’t justified. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/321 "2018-05-06T04:44:23Z")
You should maybe consider reading the rest of the thread so you can learn that **ZOMG** ‘justified’ can have multiple meanings! I can come up with all sorts of person reasons, rationalizations, and excuses for doing something. If I do, it is not incorrect to say I am ‘justifying’ my actions, or that those are ‘justifications’. An action for which reason has been found can be said to be ‘justified’, even if it is not ‘just’. Also, an action that aligns to the left or right margins of a page, is properly centered, or has spacing inserted to fill the margin-to-margin width of the page would also be justified (that last one, in fact, **fully** justified!) but I’m not at all sure how you’d manage that, unless we’re talking about blood spatter. 😉 [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=15) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=17)