# The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424 "2018-04-18T05:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/102 "2018-04-19T22:52:00Z")
Maybe if the Republic stopped acting like mad dogs who will attack anyone on the flimsy pretexts of, “We felt like it at the time” by the mob; they would stop being treated like mad dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/103 "2018-04-19T22:52:50Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > WHICH LITERALLY NOBODY IS SAYING SO THANK YOU FOR LECTURING ME ON THAT YET AGAIN GODDAMMIT How would you describe the Matari system of government? It’s not a democracy, right? And, it sounds like you want blood and tribal issues to be given major priority, so. . . . Maybe I’m just not following very well, but it seems a lot like it’s what your society’s collectively decided to go with. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 10:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/104 "2018-04-19T22:56:22Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > How would you describe the Matari system of government? It’s not a democracy, right? It is not a democracy, no. It is a tribal oligarchy. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > And, it sounds like you want blood and tribal issues to be given major priority And this is where you keep inserting your assumption despite the fact that we keep saying ‘THIS WAS THE JUSTIFICATION, BUT IT WAS WRONG, AND THIS IS NOT WHAT WE STRIVE TOWARD’. When I said ‘which nobody is saying’, I was specifically referring to: > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > but do want to be in thrall to your people’s passions of the moment No. We do not want to be in thrall to our peoples’ passions of the moment. We acknowledge the action was wrong. The justifications were flawed. **YOU CAN STOP TELLING US THE THING WE’RE ALREADY SAYING, WE ARE NOT IDIOTS OR TODDLERS**. Edit: Do you understand how your insistence on putting your assumption ahead of the _actual words that are being said_ is patronizing? Do you understand how it is _insulting_? Do you understand how we look upon this and wonder at the unmitigated _ **GALL** _ it takes to say ‘ok, well, you said X, but I believe !X, so I’m going to respond to you as if you said !X because I’d prefer you to be wrong so I can demonstrate how much more I know than you do and that you’re wayward children who need to be corrected no matter _what_ you actually said’? ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/105 "2018-04-19T23:03:36Z")
Hm. There might be nuances in what you’re saying I’m missing because I’m lacking context. The Republic’s the only empire I’ve actually never lived in at all, I don’t think. Aside from a few days in Rens not long ago. So I’ll step aside for now for people who understand their full context. Although … that’s also kind of a thing, but, I guess I’m done trying to say helpful or critical stuff for now. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/106 "2018-04-19T23:08:15Z")
> [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > For the record, I find it terrifying that the person who (best? the only person who?) understands wtf I am talking about is the goon Arrendis (\*) Stjörnauga, but I guess that’s way above the experience where it was Gaven Lok’ri of PIE Inc. > > (\*) Insert of/from/whatever as appropriate and my apologies for not being aware of your customary clan address. Also, just to have it said: A)That’s ok, it often horrifies _me_ how often the only person around who understand what the frick I’m saying is a goon… and usually me. 😉 B)My family surname is actually Culome, so the full ‘formal’ form would be Arrendis Culome of Clan Stjörnauga, but my understand is that that construction’s only maybe 130 years old, and prior to that ‘Arrendis af Stjörnauga’ would’ve been the correct form. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/107 "2018-04-19T23:08:43Z")
It seems that this thread is following a certain rhythm: - In my custom, we consider something done in a certain way very important. When you put things and handle things in your exclusive perspective, you ignore mine. When you lecture me about why my culture should do/not do something, i feel patronized. - State/Empire/Federation: Well, in **_my_** culture, we do things in another way. Go do your stuff in your place, my place my rules. In our culture the way to do things is this this and that. - Ok, but could you stop talking about how my culture should do/not do stuff? - State/Empire/Federation: You were wrong, your culture is _adjective_, stop trying to impose your stuff on us, go to your place do your _adjective_ stuff. - Random fight about old grudges - Stop patronizing. Serious. - State/Empire/Federation: You know what you should do? According to _ **my** _ culture… - 😒 ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/108 "2018-04-19T23:10:23Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > There might be nuances in what you’re saying I’m missing because I’m lacking context. Here’s the context you seem to be missing: Person A says a thing. Person B says you’re wrong because XYZ. Person A responds with ‘that… wasn’t actually what I said.’ Person B, C, D, and E, respond with ‘but you’re wrong because XYZ’. Person A thinks Persons B-E are being twats who can’t manage ‘then I don’t understand, can you clarify please?’ but just want to keep arguing against the thing Person A didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/109 "2018-04-19T23:29:59Z")
What I’m concerned about is this: “Tribe” means a certain thing to me. I’m aware that it means something larger and more sophisticated to the Matari, but I’m fuzzy on the specifics. It also keeps getting cited as something REALLY IMPORTANT in a way being Civire or Deteis doesn’t seem to be for the Caldari (everybody just yells “FOR THE STATE!” or something). So maybe Ms. Rhiannon’s view is sensible in a way I’m not able to appreciate because my sense of what she’s saying is distorted. And, Arrendis? When a person says something remarkable that seems heartfelt, and then says that wasn’t quite what they meant, there’ll be a suspicion that what they meant to begin with was just what they said, but that they later realized it maybe wasn’t a good idea. Except … that’s not exactly what happened. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Is it okay? No, I don’t think it really is. It is problematic for international relations and a threat to peace. > > Am I fine with it? Yes. > > … > > If they insist they cannot change what they are doing to accommodate me and mine - well, that’s too bad. It might get inconvenient. Even dangerous. But personally, I am fine with it. This doesn’t feel very much like a “that’s not what I meant.” It sounds more like an “I’m technically speaking for myself.” If this is a widespread feeling (her background I assume is pretty unique), and I have no reason to think it isn’t (personal feelings are often shared with a whole lot of other people), how is what I said not a totally valid criticism? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/110 "2018-04-19T23:41:10Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > When a person says something remarkable that seems heartfelt, and then says that wasn’t quite what they meant, there’ll be a suspicion that what they meant to begin with was just what they said, but that they later realized it maybe wasn’t a good idea. And in that situation, you don’t ask for clarification? You just _assume_ you had it right the first time and keep on ramming ahead at full speed? May I suggest in the future, just take that little step: _ **ask** _. It’s a lot more _civilized_ than just backhanding people across the face. Now, let’s look at what she said. > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Is it okay? No, I don’t think it really is. It is problematic for international relations and a threat to peace. She starts off saying she doesn’t think it’s ok. She _starts off_ by saying **it is not ok**. You get that, right? That she’s saying it’s not ok for her culture to be viewed ‘as being basically unstable, aggressive, and driven by a sense of grievance’. (I mean, context _matters_, you know? It’s not like you’re trotting out her saying ‘I’m fine with’ **the attacks**.[1]. Ok, so she doesn’t it’s ok. She feels the Matari being viewed that way is wrong. Then she says: > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Am I fine with it? Yes. And if that’s all she said, I could see there being some confusion and belief that she really means something else. But it’s _not_ all she said. She **said** : > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > Am I fine with it? Yes. You see; I was born and raised Matari, and not just that, but as a high-ranking member of a high-class business clan with way too many lawyers and inter-clan dealings. I am used to respecting the fact that other peoples have often bizarre and sometimes offensive beliefs and customs, and I strongly believe it is not my place to tell them to stop, as long as they do not go as far as classify as Enemy, and even then what it should boil down to is “I will shoot you if you continue that crap”, rather than “I think you are a terrible person for believing that”. (I admit I am not a saint so sometimes I fail.) So what does that _actually mean_? It means (and I’m sure she can correct me if I’m wrong here): ‘I accept that not everyone believes as I do. I accept that I cannot change how you view our culture. I have made my peace with that. It’s wrong, but it’s not going to upset me, and I will not shoot you just for holding that view, even if I disagree.’ So, you wanna maybe stop taking things out of context and then defending your response with ‘maybe I lack context’? Cuuuuz… the context was there. It just looks like you didn’t want to see it. 1. ALMOST FORGOT THE FOOTNOTE! You also realize that by presenting her statement _without_ the context of what she was responding to, you make it _look_ like she _was_ talking about the attacks, not the way our culture is viewed, right? That you appear to have **intentionally** framed that quote in a way as to make it appear that she was saying she was ‘fine’ with the attacks, even if they were wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/111 "2018-04-19T23:48:12Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > It also keeps getting cited as something REALLY IMPORTANT in a way being Civire or Deteis doesn’t seem to be for the Caldari It is the fundamental basis of our person-hood. Above, beyond, and before any other factor. For a Matari to be Clanless is bad, to be _Tribeless_…? They would honestly, deeply, and truly be better off dead. To understand what losing the Ray was like is… really hard for a non-Matari. For them to understand what it is like for a Sebiestor is beyond even that. It is a deeply personal loss. I cannot think of an example that would really resonate with you Aria, I’m afraid I just don’t know you well enough to pick something that would mean as much. In my opinion the Federation got off easy. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/112 "2018-04-19T23:55:51Z")
> [@Kalaratiri](#): > > In my opinion the Federation got off easy. Ok, there you go, Aria. You can yell at her if you like. Or you can find out if she’s saying something along the lines of ‘the attacks were wrong, but it’s really kind of surprising the attacking fleet wasn’t 10x the size’. Your ball. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/113 "2018-04-19T23:56:23Z")
Yes, I saw her history. It’s where I put the ellipsis in my quote. I left it out because I don’t think it matters at all. There are a lot of roads to where she’s gone to. … except actually it looks like I misunderstood what she was saying anyway. That whole bit was about how other people see the Matari, rather than Matari behavior. It’s a little odd, but I guess I just plain misunderstood (I think I missed the bit of what I said that she was responding to). Oh well. (Sorry, @Elsebeth_Rhiannon.) > [@Kalaratiri](#): > > In my opinion the Federation got off easy. I see … hm. Thank you for explaining this, Kala. Respectfully, to an outsider, that’s … a little chilling. It’s maybe why I was being maybe a little aggressive in all this-- frankly I’m just a touch freaked out. I really thought I’d overreacted after all the stuff about wanting to burn the Empire. But I admit I’m still pretty wary. Maybe I can get the Directrix to give me a sabbatical or something for a while. I don’t really want to get this all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/114 "2018-04-20T00:00:45Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Respectfully, to an outsider, that’s … a little chilling. I get that. I honestly do. It even scares me a little to think about it. I like to consider myself an (at least mostly) reasonable person; I’m not overly prone to violence, especially physical, and I don’t get angry very often. But if you put the man who shot the Ray in front of me right now I would gut him with my bare hands. And I’d feel pretty good about it. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/115 "2018-04-20T00:02:23Z")
> [@Kalaratiri](#): > > In my opinion the Federation got off easy. Feel free to try again, I’m sure the Republic has enough body bags to send your kin back home in. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/116 "2018-04-20T00:02:54Z")
I’m not sure a sabbatical would really help. That’s not to be dismissive, mind you, just… it’s a dense thing. I don’t know if you’d be able to get enough immersion—especially considering your loyalties—to really understand, as an outsider, in less than 5-10 years. And that’s assuming you find a place among those willing to welcome you in fully, and not just keep you at the shallow, superficial level we often interact with others at. I certainly don’t observe any of my Clan’s… internal customs? rites? where they’re exposed to outsiders… not even people I’ve known for five, six, nine years. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/117 "2018-04-20T00:06:02Z")
Nice to see you’ve changed your mind about not being the Federal version of Diana. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/118 "2018-04-20T00:08:55Z")
Oh. Well, that’s discouraging. … strange. I guess it makes sense, but, the Amarr actively want me to understand and join in; the Gallente are happy to have another voice in the huge chaotic babble; the Caldari flatly insist that if I’m going to live among them there be no measurable difference between them and me (and have PLENTY to teach about how to be Caldari) … … and the Matari want to keep to their own. Just their own. It’s kind of the first time I’ve run into that. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/119 "2018-04-20T00:10:22Z")
No, I just think if others are to make threats they should at least have the decency to carry them out. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/120 "2018-04-20T00:11:07Z")
It’s not universal. There are those who are willing to explain to outsiders, but, you know, hard lessons from the past and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Aradina\_Varren](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aradina_varren/32/398702_2.png) [@Aradina\_Varren](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aradina_Varren)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/121 "2018-04-20T00:14:36Z")
Diana has beliefs and convictions, for better or worse, this guy just says edgy things for attention. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=5) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=7)