# The events in Colelie, and why do the Feds sometimes seem patronizing **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [April 18, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424 "2018-04-18T05:24:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/142 "2018-04-20T00:50:50Z")
Oh, good. A this rate we can just dissolve CONCORD and enter a period of heavily-militarized nationalistic retrenchment. Who wins: probably the Angels and Serpentis. Hopefully not Sansha’s Nation. ---
**Author:** ![Evi\_Polevhia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/evi_polevhia/32/501296_2.png) [@Evi\_Polevhia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Evi_Polevhia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/143 "2018-04-20T00:53:58Z")
Don’t drag us in to this shitfest. We have enough problems. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/144 "2018-04-20T00:54:04Z")
Oh, I completely agree with what Kala’s actually _said_, too: The Federation got off easy. As I’ve said: we _all_ did. Because yes, the Republic _could_ have used more force. Yes, knowing what I know now, **I’m** pretty shocked we didn’t (at the time, after all, I was at PTS). I’m kind of surprised we didn’t see supercapitals involved. It certainly would’ve fit the mood of the day, even _outside_ the capsuleer community and the Fleet. I meant it when I said ‘we went mad’. We did. That we showed _any_ restraint at all surprises me. It’s not a surprise I find to be _unpleasant_, mind you, but it’s still not what I would have expected. At the time, I remember thinking mostly ‘Yeah, go show those drone-lovers they can’t treat us like slaves’. I was, you know, kind of a hothead back then… like a whole lot of us were. I’ve mellowed. A lot. I’ll leave it to you to whether or not that idea should be comforting… or scare the daylights out of you. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Who wins: probably the Angels and Serpentis. Hopefully not Sansha’s Nation. Eh, probably some massive, self-sufficient organization that doesn’t actually rely on the Empires for much of anything. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/145 "2018-04-20T00:56:55Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > A this rate we can just dissolve CONCORD and enter a period of heavily-militarized nationalistic retrenchment. When your nation has been invaded on three separate occasions by each and every other CONCORD signatory, then the utility of CONCORD to prevent such attacks on the Federation in future remains circumspect. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/146 "2018-04-20T00:57:13Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > I am quick to judge belligerence, because as recent history has shown at Luminaire, at Ratilose, and at Colelie, it is others who have displayed a willingness for belligerency resulting in attacks on the Federal homeland and the deaths of Federal citizens by the armed forces of foreign powers. Well, if you want to be what you’ve _said_ you want to be, you need to learn to put that impulse aside and be a heck of a lot more clinical and precise in what you read into things. Get the whole picture before you rage. Don’t, if you will, make the very same mistake we made at Colelie: _think_ before you _react_. ---
**Author:** ![Kalaratiri](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kalaratiri/32/477189_2.png) [@Kalaratiri](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kalaratiri)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/147 "2018-04-20T01:03:19Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > ‘we went mad’ This rings true for me. In two and a half weeks it’ll be the fifth anniversary. Five years on I still get this blood rushing, twisting, _boiling_, feeling just to think of it. I mean no insult when I say, we’ve not all mellowed. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/148 "2018-04-20T01:04:07Z")
Huh. Weirdly this makes me feel a little better about the international balance of power. The State and Empire have always been kind of friends because it was convenient rather than because they’re hugely sympathetic to each other. If things are the same between the Federation and Republic, the prospect for peace seems … weirdly, a little better. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/149 "2018-04-20T01:12:34Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Well, if you want to be what you’ve said you want to be, you need to learn to put that impulse aside and be a heck of a lot more clinical and precise in what you read into things. Get the whole picture before you rage. Don’t, if you will, make the very same mistake we made at Colelie: think before you react. I think you are failing to understand or appreciate the present Federal zeitgeist currently. If a Federal citizen looks out among the stars, what do they see? There is the Caldari State which is premised on ethnic nationalism, in which if you cannot be Caldari you face potential persecution or as the case with the Intaki at Waschi city, an actual pogrom. There is the Minmatar Republic which is also premised on ethnic nationalism, in which if you cannot be Minmatar you face potential persecution such as with Abel Jarek. There is the Amarr Empire which is premised on an authoritarian theocracy, in which if you cannot be Amarr, you will be forced to be Amarr through slavery, and which as with the Starkmanir, has a long and sordid history of ethnic cleansing and genocide. The Federation is a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic union, and it is not democracy that truly binds it together, it is a fundamental self-interest: that we remain stronger together than we do apart. The varied peoples of the Federation have a deep and unbridled vested interest in keeping the Federal union together because while it is imperfect, and at times flawed, it is the best system so far to keep such a varied collective of people together and to defend their interests. You put twenty trillion disparate people together and threaten them with violence and destruction, with invasion and death, while offering them the only alternatives of persecution and discrimination if they don’t happen to be Caldari or Minmatar on the one hand or slavery and genocide by the Amarr on the other and think the reaction won’t be absolute vehemence to defend their lives and livelihoods against those who would seek to deny it? ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/150 "2018-04-20T01:22:50Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > There is the Minmatar Republic which is also premised on ethnic nationalism, in which if you cannot be Minmatar you face potential persecution such as with Abel Jarek. No, there is the Minmatar Republic, which is founded on ‘DAMN YOU WE WILL NOT BE YOUR MINIONS.’. As for this: > [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > You put twenty trillion disparate people together and threaten them with violence and destruction, with invasion and death, while offering them the only alternatives of persecution and discrimination if they don’t happen to be Caldari or Minmatar on the one hand or slavery and genocide by the Amarr on the other and think the reaction won’t be absolute vehemence to defend their lives and livelihoods against those who would seek to deny it? So, if that’s been the outlook since Colelie… welcome to 1/200th of the Minmatar mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/morgana_tsukiyo/32/385507_2.png) [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Morgana_Tsukiyo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/151 "2018-04-20T01:24:34Z")
Trust no one NPSI Pew pew Screw CONCORD Free for all Bring Drifters and Triglavians Bring pirate Factions There can be only one 🤜🤛 A shame the Jove observatories are down, they could have very interesting logs with the current events. Perhaps they should call it quits with this simulation and start another in their other pockets. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/152 "2018-04-20T01:38:51Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > … or as the case with the Intaki at Waschi city, an actual pogrom. Mr. Vausienne, I’m not actually all that enthusiastic about the Caldari State’s ethnic policies, but this is … … well, awful of you. The Waschii Uprising was a pretty nasty bit of civil conflict-- and the Caldari State was more with the Intaki than not. The enemy was a Templis Dragonaur-inspired revolt. It was the birth of Mordu’s Legion, and the Legion has really good relations with the State to this day. If you’re looking for an example of State ethnic awfulness, try their marriage policies. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/153 "2018-04-20T02:47:16Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > The Waschii Uprising was a pretty nasty bit of civil conflict-- and the Caldari State was more with the Intaki than not. The enemy was a Templis Dragonaur-inspired revolt. It was the birth of Mordu’s Legion, and the Legion has really good relations with the State to this day. Yet the Templis Dragonaurs held de facto power in the State for over five years. Trying to say that instances of ethnic violence in the State exists as isolated incidents really does not hold true to me given that. It is also beside the point that for many in the Federation there exists a deeply held vested interest to uphold the Union because quite frankly, the alternatives are for them far worse. As I said before, the vast majority of those in the Federation cannot be Caldari, nor Minmatar, nor Amarr because the Federation remains unique in the cluster at present in not being premised as a state in which ethnic identity and maintaining that identity is the primary responsibility of the state such as in the Republic, State or Empire. Now, if the Republic, State and Empire merely held themselves to just criticizing the Federation, I honestly could not care, because they will never be able to match the extent to which Federal citizens criticize the Federation itself. There is a difference however between mere criticism, and actual attack and invasion of Federal territory resulting in the loss of life of Federal citizens, which is something the Republic, State, and Empire have all done in the past decade. To then criticize the Federation or its citizens for taking the stance that they are under real threat of the hostility of violent action by foreign powers, after having been invaded by each and every other CONCORD signatory in the past decade is absurd. After having our territories invaded, our citizens threatened with violence or outright killed by the armed forces of foreign adversaries, the expectation is somehow we have to accept that we’re the instigators and at fault for such? If the Republic, State, and Empire hold to the logic that the victim is to be blamed for the crimes that befall them then that is their own concern, but it is not something I, or many others in the Federation hold to. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 3:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/154 "2018-04-20T03:32:55Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > Federation remains unique in the cluster at present in not being premised as a state in which ethnic identity and maintaining that identity is the primary responsibility of the state such as in the Republic, State or Empire. Except that again, this is not true. The primary responsibility of the Republic is not ‘maintaining the ethnic identity’ of the Matari people. The primary responsibilities of the Republic government are serving as a unified representation of the Tribes in international interests, and establishing a framework within which to resolve potentially contentious matters (and _actual_ points of contention) between the Tribes. Things like the Republic Fleet, for example, are part of the mandate to represent our international interests (in that case, mutual defense). And no attempts by you to present xenophobic lies will make your assertions true. At this point, you are becoming as much a walking advertisement for CalMil as some say Kim is for GalMil. I can’t speak to the other cultures’ needs and purposes of their national governments, of course, but I doubt they’d agree with you, either. Even the Amarr. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/155 "2018-04-20T04:26:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > The primary responsibilities of the Republic government are serving as a unified representation of the Tribes in international interests, and establishing a framework within which to resolve potentially contentious matters (and actual points of contention) between the Tribes. So there exists no ethnic component between the Tribes, and as such for example, Brutor and Sebiestor should be considered functionally interchangeable? > [@Arrendis](#): > > And no attempts by you to present xenophobic lies will make your assertions true. I hold no intolerance to other cultures, beliefs, or civilizations. What I do have an intolerance for is the invasion of my nation and the killing of my fellow citizens by foreign powers. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 4:50am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/156 "2018-04-20T04:50:40Z")
> [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > So there exists no ethnic component between the Tribes, and as such for example, Brutor and Sebiestor should be considered functionally interchangeable? Within the Republic’s legal and political framework? How _else_ do you imagine it could work? Do you think that Republic law says the Brutor have some special consideration to be soldiers, Sebiestor get the choicest jobs in engineering, or Thukker propulsion and astrometric scientists get paid better? > [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > I hold no intolerance to other cultures, beliefs, or civilizations. With all due respect, you clearly _do_. You imagine our governments to be some kind of paeans to ethnic purity. You display immediate and emphatic belligerence to anyone who so much as says ‘even if—now that I have cooled off—I think they were wrong, we had our reasons to the error we made, and those reasons were powerful and persuasive in our pain’, let alone ‘it could’ve been far worse’. And let me be clear: it’s that _immediacy_ and verve that you show that makes me see you as xenophobic. You make no effort to get a better picture of things. You make no effort to see if your first interpretation is correct. In a bar-room brawl, your behavior is that of the man who, upon thinking he hears someone hitting on his wife, doesn’t even stop to demand ‘what did you say?’, he simply smashes a bottle and goes for the throat. I’m more than happy to believe you don’t _mean_ to be displaying xenophobic tendencies. But you _are_. And maybe you should take a long moment and consider what it means that your behavior does not line up with your stated goals. ---
**Author:** ![Anabella\_Rella](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/anabella_rella/32/515671_2.png) [@Anabella\_Rella](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Anabella_Rella)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 5:12am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/157 "2018-04-20T05:12:46Z")
I think our belligerent Federal friend forgets that a large segment of his nation’s population is ethnic Matari and that a good deal of those Federal citizens (myself included as I still hold Federal citizenship) see things quite a bit differently from him. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 5:17am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/158 "2018-04-20T05:17:04Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Not justifiable; justified. _On the level of “whose jurisdiction”._ There are other relevant factors here. Most importantly, there was (and thankfully still is) a binding contract of alliance that we broke. ---
**Author:** ![Rafal\_Vausienne](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rafal_vausienne/32/64411_2.png) [@Rafal\_Vausienne](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rafal_Vausienne)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 5:27am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/159 "2018-04-20T05:27:43Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > Within the Republic’s legal and political framework? How else do you imagine it could work? Do you think that Republic law says the Brutor have some special consideration to be soldiers, Sebiestor get the choicest jobs in engineering, or Thukker propulsion and astrometric scientists get paid better? I think you are reading far too much into things. The Minmatar Republic in my view, follows the same principles of past ethnic based nation-states: the Minmatar have a defined history, culture, and civilization that is all their own and that shared identity is unified with the power of a state. While this serves the Minmatar as a culture, a people, and a civilization, it remains non-inclusive of those who are not born into or identify with the Minmatar culture. > [@Arrendis](#): > > I’m more than happy to believe you don’t mean to be displaying xenophobic tendencies. But you are. And maybe you should take a long moment and consider what it means that your behavior does not line up with your stated goals. I’m more than able to recognize that my assessments might be in error in this instance. However, I cannot amend potential errors due to a lack of knowledge if I feel there is no desire to pursue dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 5:30am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/160 "2018-04-20T05:30:41Z")
> [@Arrendis](#): > > I meant it when I said ‘we went mad’. We did. That we showed any restraint at all surprises me. I think a lot of that was that it was not the _Tribe_ going. Had Acasta or someone else from the high-ups called, had it been a _tribal_ collection, it could have gotten worse; much, _much_ worse. We would have been completely in the throes of the grief, and we would have not had the context that showed it to us as a breach of the peace agreement between the Republic and the Federation. The latter context at least was what I think made the capsuleer commanders on the field to attempt to stop. We had the right to ask for justice to our Chief, but we did not have the right to breach that peace, and in no case was there justification for that for _all_ of the Tribes. Note that I am reconstructing my emotional reasoning five years post-hoc. I could be off by lightyears. ---
**Author:** ![Arrendis](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arrendis/32/432594_2.png) [@Arrendis](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arrendis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2018, 5:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424/161 "2018-04-20T05:32:06Z")
Hang on now. You asked: > [@Rafal\_Vausienne](#): > > for example, Brutor and Sebiestor should be considered functionally interchangeable? And I asked you how else it could work. Please answer that question. How do you _imagine_ our government wouldn’t consider us ‘functionally interchangeable’? [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=7) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-events-in-colelie-and-why-do-the-feds-sometimes-seem-patronizing/70424.md?page=9)