# The good, the bad, and the ugly. What do we need to make War actual War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Player Features & Ideas\ **Created:** [April 4, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844 "2018-04-04T21:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/1 "2018-04-04T21:49:55Z")
I will not use this post for anything other than to start the thread and collect opinions on things. * * * Good: Destroying things - @MinerArt PvP - @mkint * * * Bad: Easily Avoided - @MinerArt Everything - @Solstice_Projekt @Ameko_Tanaka No step from PvE to PvP - @mkint Watchlist removal - @mkint * * * Ugly: Purpose for fighting - @MinerArt Corp finding tools have zero help in this - @mkint Not treated as a core piece of eve - @mkint * * * Decline participation - @Ralph_King-Griffin Pay Concord for peace (aka remove high sec) - @Solstice_Projekt Scrap/rebuild - @Ameko_Tanaka ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/2 "2018-04-04T21:50:08Z")
Personal opinion time. War is good at basically allowing players to destroy other player’s items in space in high sec. Stations, Ships, Pods, Pocos, etc. War is Bad at preventing people from just avoiding it. War is Ugly at giving a purpose for fighting at all. Come share your views on what you think war is good/bad/ugly for. Or don’t. Enjoy stagnation rather than discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:06pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/3 "2018-04-04T23:06:33Z")
If you actually give a shite about war, why aren’t you on our discord with a Google doc? Seriously it’s where the people who actually use the mechanic most are. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/4 "2018-04-04T23:12:11Z")
> [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](#): > > If you actually give a shite about war, why aren’t you on our discord with a Google doc? > > Seriously it’s where the people who actually use the mechanic most are. Official forums are free to discuss on. Do you wish to voice your input on what is good/bad/ugly? ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/5 "2018-04-04T23:19:24Z")
Not particularly no, I reserve my shop talk here on the forums for putting out fires that arise from gobshites that either don’t know or remember how we got here in the first place. If you actually care, put your thoughts on a Google doc and come join us. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 3:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/6 "2018-04-05T03:41:10Z")
where at? ---
**Author:** ![Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ralph_king-griffin/32/252855_2.png) [@Ralph\_King-Griffin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ralph_King-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/7 "2018-04-05T03:51:50Z")
I’ll get one of the lads to send you an invite, not just throwing it out for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/lugh_crow-slave/32/441552_2.png) [@Lugh\_Crow-Slave](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Lugh_Crow-Slave)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2018, 3:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/8 "2018-04-05T03:52:49Z")
understandable lol ---
**Author:** ![Solstice\_Projekt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/solstice_projekt/32/503293_2.png) [@Solstice\_Projekt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Solstice_Projekt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 12:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/9 "2018-04-06T12:08:03Z")
This is silly. To make war actual war, you have to remove all choices and all restrictions. As CCP would not be willing to do so, because it would push out all those too weak to handle it, you simply can not have proper war mechanics in EVE ONLINE. There is no way of fixing it, until you scrape it and change the whole system around it. Every single idea I have seen so far is, excluding the dumb ones, nothing but a band aid fix that will achieve nothing in the long run because most people do not actually look at what it is about. When people look at wars, they think of game mechanics. They think that these and that thing needs to be allowed or restricted. They do not think about the long term consequences of any feature they come up with, nor they do think about what the introduction of certain features means in terms of cultural development. You want to fix war? Declare it the norm and let the weak ones pay for peace. That is how it should be… not the other way round like we have now. When it comes to survival, which is part of what we are talking about, then those who are willing to kill will always be superior to those who are not. That is how it works. The more layers of complexity you add on top of **how it works naturally** , the less it will work out all by itself. Overly supporting the weak is a dead-end. Those who wish to not get wardecced need alternatives, with restrictions to their abilities. They can not have the cake and eat it as well, like it is currently. They can not and should not. CCP spoiling several (in-game) generations with abilities they do not have the sense of responsibilities for was and is a mistake that needs to be corrected. That last paragraph is a train wreck. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Ameko\_Tanaka](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ameko_tanaka/32/62894_2.png) [@Ameko\_Tanaka](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ameko_Tanaka)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/10 "2018-04-06T12:48:29Z")
and even more wardec stuff Rule 34: War is good for business. Rule 35: Peace is good for business. And these work on both, ingame and CCP. There are so many things to consider. Short of a completely new system from scratch and a holy grail to get it right just leave the mechanics be already. ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/11 "2018-04-06T15:26:53Z")
Your particulars I might not especially agree with, however on the high level, absolutely: PVP needs to be normalized from the beginning. Tutorials should take you to PVP rather than take you to mining/industry/missions/etc. PVE should be designed to to sharpen PVP skills rather than as a completely separate game. Maybe starter corps and/or all NPC corps should be in FW. (edit: maybe remove NPC corp tax rate to balance the FW thing, and make the corp-finding tools into something that are not garbage so the inexperienced can reliably find “safe haven” corps that are actually good at the cooperation to keep everyone alive and productive.) Most ideas are bad, mine probably are too. However, the problems with wardecs are mostly minor (I still think removing watchlist was a bad move with no upsides and probably the worst thing to happen to defenders/targets since the beginning of EVE.) The real problem with wardecs is that people don’t seem to realize you’re supposed to be prepared for it. It is (or should be) _the_ core game mechanic of highsec with everything else serving to make sure it’s fun. edit: @MinerArt your OP summary missed the important one: wardecs are considered a fringe activity instead of a core activity. Or stated another way, the culture, fear, and stigma surrounding it. Nothing will “fix” wardecs until defenders learn that wars are actually fun. ---
**Author:** ![MinerArt](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/minerart/32/33728_2.png) [@MinerArt](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/MinerArt)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/12 "2018-04-06T15:55:27Z")
Got it. Adding that to ugly since that is a pretty ugly thing still. > [@mkint](#): > > edit: @MinerArt your OP summary missed the important one: wardecs are considered a fringe activity instead of a core activity. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/4/1/41ec4921cbaca7a6f9ea556e7cc20018461eae5e.png) [@system](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-what-do-we-need-to-make-war-actual-war/67844/13 "2018-07-05T15:55:31Z")
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