# The Havoc content, in it’s current form will physically and mentally hurt players if continued **URL:** \ **Category:** Assembly Hall\ **Created:** [December 2, 2023, 10:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582 "2023-12-02T10:53:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/81 "2023-12-07T18:11:51Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > This is fine, but I am talking about pressure more serious then this. The Triglavian Invasion was brutal on people living in the systems under attack, but winning or losing meant the direct pressure abated. Some people, however became enmeshed in defending all of highsec as Edencom or obsessed with taking all systems to Pochven on the Triglavian side. > > This pressure felt resulted in a small portion of players going way to far in a measurable and palpable way. CCP re-introducing such pressure is playing with the fire that is their duty of care. Once is an incident, but re-introduction resulting in clearly predictable harm to some of the playerbase is a quagmire. > > And the mechanics have taken away player choice, not given choice. The content is inflicted on the players by way of CCP manually selecting systems to subject to insurgency (don’t think we didn’t notice that). The defending player is relegated to contending with the content and YOUR nullblock, among others looking to eat their enjoyment of the game, not just for one insurgency but for an infinite number of consecutive insurgencies that all have to be won in order to not see a system burn. Again, let people decide for themselves what they want to do. I don’t care how serious the pressure is - and trust me, there’s no pressure here that is remotely close to what we get in nullsec in a major war - folks have to decide for themselves what they want to do and how much they want to play. No game company has a duty of care to its subscribers to limit how much time they play the game. That does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kaver\_Linkovir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaver_linkovir/32/397406_2.png) [@Kaver\_Linkovir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaver_Linkovir)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/82 "2023-12-07T19:32:37Z")
> [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > All they have to do is not do the content if they are burnt out from it…why force a change? It’s not like wardecks where people could actually lose stuff for not logging in. There is the choice between fighting or watching everything burn. And yes, there is a lot to lose. That you are unaware of this shows your are unfamiliar with the opposite side of the content. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Again, let people decide for themselves what they want to do. Yes, please, but make it a choice then? Not a shotgun wedding that has to be repeated every week or possibly every few days for the same system over and over. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I don’t care how serious the pressure is - and trust me, there’s no pressure here that is remotely close to what we get in nullsec in a major war - folks have to decide for themselves what they want to do and how much they want to play. First off, by settling in nullsec you have agreed to all that brings from the outset. In this thread we were talking about highsec stuff placed there before this content was in development. At this point I feel obligated to remind you that when the rules were changed for nullsec structures THE COMPENSATION FOR THE CHANGE WAS FACTION FORTIZARS. The inhabitants of the highsec systems that are under constant threat now have received no such compensation. Secondly, the rewards in nullsec are a compensation for the increased risk. Nothing changed on the reward side for the highsec residents that have been bombarded to the de facto farms for this content without the rewards that come with living in nullsec or lowsec. So if you want to speak risk versus reward, either nerf your nullsec rewards or increase those of the highsec systems at constant risk. Thirdly, nullsec blocks are generally fleeting up to the maximum of 256 for however many of those fleets can be populated. One person or even twenty not fleeting up for a particular engagement will not be noticed. If the fleet size is closer to a dozen, a few people logging off feels way more impactful for all involved. You glossing over this is to easy. Fourthly, nullsec is ruled by timers. This content is 23.8 / 7 with timers at the tail end if you get beaten. Missing a plex even after winning the system to suppression stage 5 can still result in corruption stage three with the added NPC pressure that entails. So you are essentially stuck defending for all the hours the servers are up even after winning. This is a pressure that is unlike your nullsec content. Not saying there isn’t a part of nullsec content that does go for all hours the server are up, but all things that you can lose will be lost after timers, after committing it to the field or due to internal things not running as you would hope they would 😉 Fifthly, Eve is unique in the content it provides and was at the forefront of the conversion of time into ISK into plex. Gambling laws have impacted the legality of, for instance, the hypernet in certain jurisdictions and have prompted CCP to kindly request services like EOHpoker and Eve-bet to shut down. So while you may not want CCP to have a duty of care, they certainly feel one. The previously well documented negative effects of the Triglavian Invasion content on some players ability to properly manage their time spent playing Eve and the metrics CCP has gathered during that time should be taken very seriously. Your desire to ignore this does not change that. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/83 "2023-12-07T20:35:16Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > There is the choice between fighting or watching everything burn. And yes, there is a lot to lose. That you are unaware of this shows your are unfamiliar with the opposite side of the content. You have yet to show what gets destroyed when you are logged off though. Vague hand waving doesn’t mean anything. ---
**Author:** ![Kaver\_Linkovir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaver_linkovir/32/397406_2.png) [@Kaver\_Linkovir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaver_Linkovir)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/84 "2023-12-07T20:49:25Z")
> [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > You have yet to show what gets destroyed when you are logged off though. Vague hand waving doesn’t mean anything. > **UNIQUE: Highsec Only** - Attacking ships, **structures** and drones is now possible without a criminal timer and CONCORD response. CONCORD will only respond to capsule kills or assisting someone with a criminal timer in the system. Can’t safe log off a fortizar. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 8:57pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/85 "2023-12-07T20:57:26Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > At this point I feel obligated to remind you that when the rules were changed for nullsec structures THE COMPENSATION FOR THE CHANGE WAS FACTION FORTIZARS. The inhabitants of the highsec systems that are under constant threat now have received no such compensation. You mean the previously unkillable stations that are now permanently limited, removable and destroyable? What a wonderful compensation that 99% of players will have zero use for. You want to argue that they shouldn’t have made this change because it makes it harder for you to do whatever it is you do, that’s fine. My issue is with you couching it in this nanny-state “this puts people under too much stress” nonsense. And again, if you think there is anything remotely close in highsec to losing years worth of time and money in just one big fight, like we see in null all the time, you’re kidding yourself. They do not have a duty of care, period. There is no legal justification for that argument. To my knowledge there has not been a single instance of EVE getting smacked over the hypernet because of gambling laws. The inability to translate in-game winnings to real-world cash avoids all of those laws. Those sites that were shut down were shut down because of RMT, not because of any concerns with gambling laws. Frankly, the effects of absurdly stupid posting like this has had a far more deleterious impact on my health and the health of anybody who was unfortunate enough to read this than anything CCP did with expansions. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/86 "2023-12-07T21:05:16Z")
And killing one (any structures) requires the insurgencies to last MUCH longer than they do. ---
**Author:** ![Kaver\_Linkovir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaver_linkovir/32/397406_2.png) [@Kaver\_Linkovir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaver_Linkovir)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/87 "2023-12-07T22:26:24Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You want to argue that they shouldn’t have made this change because it makes it harder for you to do whatever it is you do, that’s fine. All I ask is that winning suppression stage five in a system means something. Gets us something. > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > - Hitting suppression stage five before corruption stage five should be rewarded by locking the corruption at the percentage it has once suppression stage five is reached while also despawning the plexes and disallowing further plexing in system. Right now Militia players have to keep a presence in fully suppressed systems after suppression five is reached. This means the Angel players get to move elsewhere after corruption five, but the Militia players are tied down chasing the enemy so as not to have to contend with further corruption of their already defended systems. > - No re-incursion in successfully stage five suppressed systems for MONTHS. This is an important one. The content is a grind, but do-able for a few days. But after players need a long breather or a small number of them will suffer health consequences due to the current Havoc design flaws. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > And again, if you think there is anything remotely close in highsec to losing years worth of time and money in just one big fight, like we see in null all the time, you’re kidding yourself. EVERYTHING a nullblock risks is put there by it’s players while knowing the risks. And, as said before, the rewards in nullsec are vast while the actual day to day risk is minimal. Your Delve is the most mined out region at 1.72 trillion ISK, second in NPC bounties at 4.27 trillion ISK, second in production only to the Forge at 26.89 trillion ISK. The gap between the Forge and Delve at a mere 1.26 trillion ISK. And with trade volume in Delve at 78 % of Amarr, the second largest tradehub in the game. Where is the risk? In choosing to take fights? With MONTHS and even YEARS between big wars? But being able to pick your fights in nullsec isn’t enough for you, you want the same small basket of highsec systems to turn up and provide content for your bored members every few days, regardless of winning the last time around and if they dare to go outside and play while your members wash over their farms and fields you will burn the lot and then be surprised that subscription numbers drop yet again. And then start moaning about lack of content, because you burned it all. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > My issue is with you couching it in this nanny-state “this puts people under too much stress” nonsense. Kindly keep inflammatory American political discourse and phrasing out of this thread. Equating not actively seeking to repeat the harm done to players during the Triglavian Invasion content to _“nanny state nonsense”_ is seeking a false equivalent unbecoming of civil discord and a slippery slope I do not wish to engage. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > And killing one (any structures) requires the insurgencies to last MUCH longer than they do. Longer then they currently last. You forget we will have to keep repeating this content. Edit: one you to many. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/88 "2023-12-07T23:05:53Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > Longer then they currently last. You forget we will have to keep repeating this content. Ok, it could hypothetically happen, if farmers didn’t farm, and if players had the discipline to not end the insurgency quickly (except that it only lasts 14 days)…and if people don’t want to keep defending, they can just move their assets. BTW there is no central leadership within angels…it’s just a bunch of groups all doing their own thing, even shooting each other. Someone could just come along and repeatedly war deck those structures, week after week too should that be nerfed too? ---
**Author:** ![Kaver\_Linkovir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaver_linkovir/32/397406_2.png) [@Kaver\_Linkovir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaver_Linkovir)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 11:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/89 "2023-12-07T23:13:03Z")
> [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > Someone could just come along and repeatedly war deck those structures, week after week too should that be nerfed too? People do come allong to do just that, but they don’t get to do that again for a bit after their war HQ dies. ---
**Author:** ![Malak\_Starfire](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/malak_starfire/32/501915_2.png) [@Malak\_Starfire](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Malak_Starfire)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/90 "2023-12-07T23:24:43Z")
And yet the insurgency FOB has yet to get to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 1:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/91 "2023-12-08T01:40:12Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > Where is the risk? In choosing to take fights? With MONTHS and even YEARS between big wars? You be the FC who loses $300k worth of your alliance’s assets, and then tell me there’s no stress. You be the guy who gets made fun of on video after video because you ■■■■■■ up a drop. That’s real life stress, not “oh man, I need to log in again tonight because my system may end up lowsec if I don’t.” > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > Kindly keep inflammatory American political discourse and phrasing out of this thread. Equating not actively seeking to repeat the harm done to players during the Triglavian Invasion content to _“nanny state nonsense”_ is seeking a false equivalent unbecoming of civil discord and a slippery slope I do not wish to engage. Claiming that CCP is actively harming the real life health of people is absurd, and you deserve to be mocked for even writing that argument down. It’s the absolute worst way to sell your desire for change, and not only did you lead with it, you doubled down on it. Get a grip. ---
**Author:** ![Rtsu](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/rtsu/32/382977_2.png) [@Rtsu](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Rtsu)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 7:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/92 "2023-12-08T07:47:28Z")
Fyi the CSM is supposed to be on the side of the players ---
**Author:** ![Kaver\_Linkovir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/kaver_linkovir/32/397406_2.png) [@Kaver\_Linkovir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Kaver_Linkovir)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 11:36am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/93 "2023-12-08T11:36:03Z")
> [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You be the FC who loses $300k worth of your alliance’s assets, and then tell me there’s no stress. The FCs in faction warfare have fleetmates that bought their own ship, paid for by running Faction Warfare plexes and killing enemies in a dangerous environment. Or ships that were paid for by having alliance programs to buy member LP and then sell it for a slight bit more then they bought it. I would argue that is a lot more intense then _“alliance’s assets”_ when you are expressing those assets in USD. However, our FCs are there to have fun and, as a rule, don’t get flak for whelping a fleet. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You be the guy who gets made fun of on video after video because you ■■■■■■ up a drop. That sounds like people are unkind. If it’s your own people being this unkind to their own FC, you might have a bullying problem you should address? If it’s other alliances doing the videos then it would fall under propaganda unless it crosses a line into personal attacks, which is never ok. And if it’s propaganda, then alliancemembers should be part of the safe space for that FC. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > That’s real life stress, not “oh man, I need to log in again tonight because my system may end up lowsec if I don’t.” It’s _“real life stress”_ because you, an integral part of your alliance, express in game losses in USD when they should be expressed in content per member per hour. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > Claiming that CCP is actively harming the real life health of people is absurd, and you deserve to be mocked for even writing that argument down. Oh, you were attempting to mock me with the _“nanny state nonsense”_ comment? The comment falls flat in my neck of the woods since it’s not part of the discourse here. Your mockery, sir, went right over my head, I am afraid. In the future, please include your intent to mock so I can take it as intended. What might be an issue in regards to our lack of mutual understanding is that you are so far removed from the content that was defending against the Triglavian Invasions that you know nothing of the health concerns that were well documented by people flying on the Edencom side? Please ask CCP for the metrics surrounding the Triglavian Invasions with special attention to people spending over 12 hours a day actively engaging with the content and then get back to me. Because I would like to engage with you in earnest about my concern, and I can’t do that if you lack information. And my issue here is that the content that Havoc brings to defenders, while fun, will be the Triglavian Invasion all over again if repeated to soon after winning a system. Please note I am ONLY talking about systems the defenders managed to get to suppression stage five. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > It’s the absolute worst way to sell your desire for change, and not only did you lead with it, you doubled down on it. It’s the only reason for me to address this. I see a game mechanic that has the potential to invite well documented unhealthy player behavior in a small subset of players where a small tweak would easily mitigate this very real life harm before it’s done, keeping the content fun for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/94 "2023-12-08T15:04:53Z")
> [@Rtsu](#): > > Fyi the CSM is supposed to be on the side of the players I’m not on the CSM anymore, and I’m always on the side of players - except when they are being absolute whiners and need an adult to explain to them reality. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/95 "2023-12-08T15:10:01Z")
> [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > The FCs in faction warfare have fleetmates that bought their own ship, paid for by running Faction Warfare plexes and killing enemies in a dangerous environment. Or ships that were paid for by having alliance programs to buy member LP and then sell it for a slight bit more then they bought it. I would argue that is a lot more intense then _“alliance’s assets”_ when you are expressing those assets in USD. However, our FCs are there to have fun and, as a rule, don’t get flak for whelping a fleet. I find it hard to believe that you don’t understand my reference here. I’m talking about big titan fights, like M2, where hundreds of thousands of dollars of ships were lost. There were news articles written about these fights. Imagine being the guy who made the call and got all that stuff killed. That is real life stress. I can see that in addition to being absurd, you’re also being obtuse - either that, or you’re so in your head with your roleplay nonsense that you aren’t aware of basic things happening in the game outside of what you do. > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > What might be an issue in regards to our lack of mutual understanding is that you are so far removed from the content that was defending against the Triglavian Invasions that you know nothing of the health concerns that were well documented by people flying on the Edencom side? So well documented that I’ve never heard about it - feel free to provide your documentation, since it’s apparently so common that everybody should be aware of it. I’ve been playing this game for 17 years, and I’ve never seen a single argument, reddit post, forum post or the like saying that people were getting sick playing EVE because of the Trig expansion. Regardless, I’m done here - it’s clear to me that you’re not really arguing in good faith, because nobody can make these arguments with a straight face. ---
**Author:** ![Spacetramp\_Drago](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/spacetramp_drago/32/480922_2.png) [@Spacetramp\_Drago](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Spacetramp_Drago)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/96 "2023-12-08T17:22:20Z")
I think that both CCP and a certain someone should remember that gaming is under a microscope worldwide concerning it’s effects on players, both in a monetary and health sense. ---
**Author:** ![Brisc\_Rubal](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/brisc_rubal/32/374307_2.png) [@Brisc\_Rubal](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Brisc_Rubal)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 5:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/97 "2023-12-08T17:48:50Z")
Where? China? ---
**Author:** ![Calamity\_Unleashed](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/calamity_unleashed/32/413414_2.png) [@Calamity\_Unleashed](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Calamity_Unleashed)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/98 "2023-12-08T18:33:42Z")
Nobody asking anyone to spend 12 hours in a game, online or otherwise. No one should feel obligated to play for any amount of time. No one should set their playstyle to need more than reasonable amount of time to enjoy and maintain. No one should feel obligated to surrender time or enjoyment to a playstyle or mechanic that is oblivious to the concept of Health, in all it’s facets. > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > This pressure felt resulted in a small portion of players going way to far in a measurable and palpable way No one forced them to. There are ways to move assets around so that one doesn’t have to stay awake 48h to defend anything one has. And if it means losing P.I operations, no one forces anyone to get into P.I or anything that has the potential to be lost/taken over. It’s all by choice. Who likes people who cry over their own choices? > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > It’s _“real life stress”_ because you, an integral part of your alliance, express in game losses in USD when they should be expressed in content per member per hour. I agree with that part. It stops being an online game when it has real-life consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Jesoph\_Swolin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/jesoph_swolin/32/383423_2.png) [@Jesoph\_Swolin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Jesoph_Swolin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 12:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/99 "2023-12-09T12:35:42Z")
> [@Tipa\_Riot](#): > > What are you talking about, is this roleplay? This is not roleplay, as this section of the forum is out-of character. If you wish to roleplay, I defer you first to the eve lore, and once you are ready, towards the in-character sections of the forum. These people spent years building up a highsec system so everyone could mine and farm under highsec rules. If they wanted to live in lowsec or nullsec, they’d already be there. For the most part they don’t because their IRL does not afford them the time. Then along comes this migratory flavour of the month content which is a mixture of incursions and faction wars, which threatens to make the system lowsec long enough for them to lose everything. I am not affected since all my chars live in lowsec, and I can’t be arsed to mine or do indy. However, I do consider the idea of them losing everything due to the new content to be cringe. So I, and others, went there to help, and pushed it to stage 5 suppression. Problem is that it is the same unhealthy grind as the Trigvasions. Like the Kybernauts, the Angel Militia is weak, but they get infinite rematches, as nothing prevents the FOB from respawning within 4 jumps of the system again. In essence that means a future of infinite hell-grinds, that have the same vibe as the hell-grinds during the Trigvasions. > [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](#): > > sorry but people figting for supression are mainly miners. CCP gave them a grindy play-style which fits their bot-aspirant gameplay. > > It is not so hard to understand. Our corpse collection says otherwise. > [@New\_Order\_Enforcer](#): > > sorry? it gives an incredible reward, juicy extra LPs for the miners/carebears operating in this region. > > This is similar than trigs/edencom. Edencom are the HS-miners with a grindy mindset, while trigs are the chad alpha individuals. Same applies in this case. > > If you defend the system, you are going to get awesome LP bonuses to improve your grind. I believe for a miner thats a perfect reward. The homies care solely about safeguarding the system for the sake of the homies. The LP is irrelevant. Since the LP is irrelevant, it does not count as a reward. The only reward at the end of the three-day hell-grind is avoiding level 5 corruption. That is not a carrot. That is a stick. Which is the exact same setup as during the Triglavian Invasions. > [@Crimsonjade](#): > > Stay in highsec and your mostly safe. This would be on point, if it weren’t for the fact that this new content tries to turn their home system from HS to LS. > [@Crimsonjade](#): > > **pirates are having fun**. The salty tears which I observed in local chat during the three-day hell-grind insinuated that they were experiencing an emotion, but I suspect that if said emotion was fun, they would have been GF’ing my fleet. > [@El\_Profii](#): > > All the rest of it seems like someone who’s infrastructure was suddenly at risk when it hasnt been for a very long time and wants CCP to remove that risk I interpret their message as them not having signed up for this by virtue of them having chosen to live in highsec. Their frustration stems from CCP altering the deal. > [@El\_Profii](#): > > The notion of taking drugs to play eve in the first paragraph of the OP seems like gigantic hyperbole. That notion stems from a friend of mine suggesting panzer chocolate as a joke. It then took on a life of its own and became a part of the myths surrounding player participation in the Triglavian Invasions. > [@El\_Profii](#): > > Overall, I think there is nothing wrong with Havoc, I am sure the numbers will need to be iterated as it loses its flavour of the week status and the landscape adjusts but nothing too significant imo Whether I agree or disagree with you depends entirely on how often I have to form to save the homies. Once a month? Alright. Once a week? Bit much. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > The ultimate responsibility for personal health is _the self_. Not where he is from. The individual certainly has the lion’s share of the responsibility, but if an unhealthy circumstance exists within the borders, it is the State’s job to fix that. If an unhealthy circumstance exists at work, it is the company’s job to fix that. He simply extends the exact same logic here when he says that if an unhealthy circumstance exists in the game, it is the company’s job to fix that. I am not entirely convinced that this logic holds true, as this company is Icelandic, and not Dutch, but I understand where my compatriot is coming from perfectly fine. Especially after the State slapped so many companies on the wrist for including gambling in their games. We can say it with a straight face because it is the norm of every day life for us. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > There is no „partisan politicking“ whatever that means. Meaningless word salad. It means that he thinks that people are disagreeing with him because said people are all a part of the group responsible for the corruption. I don’t agree entirely since I have observed the overwhelming majority of Angel Militia people being farmers with no concept of doctrine, though I did see a nice Rupture + Scythe blob at some point, which was a pleasant change. In my mind the only ones with a vested interest in turning their system into Lowsec would be AmarrMil. > [@Uriel\_the\_Flame](#): > > They will argue some people can not help themselves like gambling addicts and such. So in that case their family and friends should be there for them. And in the end it is not a corporate entity’s duty to be your healthcare supervisor. Where gambling in games is concerned, it very much -is- a company’s duty to keep it out of their games, if they have any desire to continue doing business in the Netherlands. However, I disagree that the new Havoc content is on the same level of bad as the gambling nonsense EA puts in games like FIFA. In my eyes CCP is already complying with the requirements of the State by having the option to disable hypernetting by personal request. That is good. > [@Io\_Koval](#): > > I get people aren’t having fun and are hurting in their over-a-decade-old militia organization, but lashing out by asking the CSM and CCP to make the other barely-a-month-old-and-disorganized side miserable plus the “think of the chiildren” of Eve is putting one’s self hard at work to earn ridicule. Not really. [Firstly, I am having fun. Not in Minmil, that is true, but definitely in Calmil. This content was a wonderful opportunity to do some nanogang ■■■■■■■■ and expand the corpse collection.](https://youtu.be/HhoUQgO2Riw?t=7) What I don’t understand is why people who chose to live in highsec now have to hell-grind at regular intervals to avoid becoming lowsec. That’s fun every so often, but I can see it getting old if it happens too often. And since it sounds unreasonable that it could happen too often, this is brought to the attention of CCP, via the forums. I do not know why it was brought to the attention of the CSM, though. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > How many more systems do Minmatar have over Amarr atm? Kinda irrelevant since I wouldn’t want to see this constantly happening to Amarr, Caldari or Gallente groups who live in HS systems either. Not sure why you think this is solely about Minmatar HS systems. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > You refuse to see that it’s the same game play as traditional faction warfare Actually it is very nice that it is the same gameplay as traditional fac war, since that is what I do most of the time. Especially since defending against a Trigvasion in Highsec was basically unpaid belt ratting. Asides from pipe bombing Kybernaut fleets with smartbomb Praxis, the only fighting there was against boredom. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > just don’t like being on the losing side We literally won tho. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > you didn’t see them whine and complain nearly as much I hear no group complain more than Galmil, but that might be because you hear about those more when you are in Calmil. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > structures aren’t really threatened Explain? > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > It’s no different from multiple invasions and the reconquering or redefending of systems in traditional faction warfare. It is tho. Firstly, multiple Trigvasions was a bug that got fixed by CCP during chapter 3. Secondly, taking a system in FW does not drop the security rating. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > Havoc has been out for less than a month, we have NO idea what the new equilibrium will be once people who don’t do FW normally leave and the hype dies down. On this I agree with you. It has only been released a short while ago, and the enemy is not particularly challenging at the moment, so there is a realistic chance that it will become less problematic over time. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > 3 instead of 1 is not much of a difference, especially when most of them just shoot at your allied rats. I actually know some people who claim FW is PVE because there is a rat to prevent ghost-capping. Rudest thing anyone’s ever said to me in this game. SMH. > [@Ryze\_Telgard](#): > > The opinions are interesting. Pirate players defend the mechanic, while citizens complain that it disrupts their industry & causes losses/delays. Also that defenses are borne at their own expense. That does not sound like an accurate understanding of the events. Real pirates are cool people with -10 sec who fly around to get kills. Most of the people in the Angel Cartel Militia are not driven by kills, but by profit in the shape of LP. I think it would be rude to put these two groups of people in the same category. Similarly, I have not met any of the “citizens” who complain about disruptions to industry or losses. They have complained about the fact that they successfully defended their system, but that they will have to do it over and over again. > [@Ryze\_Telgard](#): > > I actually want to become a guristas & try that too. But the standing is difficult to increase. I have to go halfway across the galaxy to find some arc agents, which I could only find out by asking & YT 😃 very cumbersome. I can’t fly with Guristas due to RP reasons, but if it seems fun to you, then I encourage you to try. > [@Ryze\_Telgard](#): > > It would be cool if the NPC states had a bit more plasticity. That they respond more to this threat. I agree. During the Trigvasions and Havoc, they’re basically punching bags. Would be cool to see them go wipe out Sansha’s Nation again like they did over a century ago. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > there’s no pressure here that is remotely close to what we get in nullsec in a major war Major Null Wars are the closest thing to a sleeping aid this game has to offer. If you enjoy that I am happy for you, but my idea of perfection aligns far more with what Black Rebel Rifter Club does. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > There is no legal justification for that argument. There is no legal justification for that argument **where you live**. That does not mean that applies elsewhere. Watching you argue American logic whilst Kaver argues Dutch logic is dumb, though. What matters is what the Icelanders think of all this. My prediction is that they view it quite like Mark Hamil’s rendition of the Joker views his jokes. If that is the case, then it is how it is. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > To my knowledge there has not been a single instance of EVE getting smacked over the hypernet because of gambling laws. Whether there is a cash-out option is irrelevant. The Dutch state would only care about whether there is a chance-based game that requires people to insert real life currency to play. CCP avoided problems by providing an opt-out option, and arguing that the PLEX used to pay for the hypercores can be paid for via ISK. This is also irrelevant to the discussion, as the Havoc Content does not have anything to do with the hypernet, so I do not understand why people keep bringing that up as an example. I agree that when it comes to no-lifing EVE, the responsibility lies with the individual, and not with CCP. What I do disagree with is winning an insurgency, and then potentially having to do it again next week. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > And again, if you think there is anything remotely close in highsec to losing years worth of time and money in just one big fight, like we see in null all the time, you’re kidding yourself. An irrelevant content, by virtue of this not being Nullsec. Those people chose to live in Highsec. If they wanted to live in Lowsec or Nullsec, they would. You missing the mark is somewhat on point though, as the last time I saw someone complain about Uprising changing the FW mechanics in a way that promoted krabbing and decentivized dank solo pvp, you dismissed their concerns with “you’re just worried about your bottom line”. That was a very disrespectful thing to say to someone who has almost thirteen times more solo kills than you do, by the way. Especially coming from someone with no background in FW. > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > EVERYTHING a nullblock risks is put there by it’s players while knowing the risks. And, as said before, the rewards in nullsec are vast while the actual day to day risk is minimal. Your Delve is the most mined out region at 1.72 trillion ISK, second in NPC bounties at 4.27 trillion ISK, second in production only to the Forge at 26.89 trillion ISK. The gap between the Forge and Delve at a mere 1.26 trillion ISK. And with trade volume in Delve at 78 % of Amarr, the second largest tradehub in the game. > > Where is the risk? In choosing to take fights? With MONTHS and even YEARS between big wars? Honestly, don’t even try to argue with it. The only good thing Null ever gave this game was the youtube content we got from Rooks & Kings and Darkon Chanlin. Beyond that it’s just people who dock up the moment a neutral appears in local + TIDI battles. Null people don’t see the irony in telling you that you are complaining because your highsec system can be turned into lowsec by newly-released content, after they themselves cried like little girls over Blackout. The only real difference is that they have enough paid accounts to put the CSM in their pocket. This is also why you don’t vote for any candidate with null ties. > [@Malak\_Starfire](#): > > Someone could just come along and repeatedly war deck those structures, week after week too should that be nerfed too? You are correct in saying that it -could- happen, it just doesn’t, because they tried before and remember the cost. In contrast, there is nothing that prevents endlessly having to re-do system defences against insurgencies. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You be the FC who loses $300k worth of your alliance’s assets, and then tell me there’s no stress. Don’t undock what you don’t want to lose? And why are you even translating it into real life currency when you can’t turn ISK into USD without violating the EULA? To sound impressive? > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > You be the guy who gets made fun of on video after video because you ■■■■■■ up a drop. Go blow ■■■■ up in Lowsec and find better friends there? > [@Rtsu](#): > > Fyi the CSM is supposed to be on the side of the players That depends entirely on the CSM member in question. The Null CSMs are solely on the CSM to represent the interests of the Null blocks who voted them in. > [@Kaver\_Linkovir](#): > > Oh, you were attempting to mock me with the _“nanny state nonsense”_ comment? He was. His country does things differently from ours. However, since he assumes the way his country’s way is the norm, he thinks he is entitled to mock you. Much in the same way that he thinks being a Null bloc man allows him to ridicule Lowsec players who only pursue good fights, as well as Highsec players who just want to chill. This roughly translates to conversation with him being pointless, and frankly I am unsure why you bothered going to the CSM to begin with. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I find it hard to believe that you don’t understand my reference here. I’m talking about big titan fights, like M2, where hundreds of thousands of dollars of ships were lost. There were news articles written about these fights. Imagine being the guy who made the call and got all that stuff killed. What matters the price tag if the fight is ■■■■? I have seen T1 frigate 1v1s that generated a higher heartbeat than ■■■■■■■ M2. If you enjoy that nonsense, good on you. If that nonsense stresses you out, perhaps you should practice what you preach, and find something else to do. Or if you can’t see the hypocrisy, perhaps we should petition to bring back Blackout. > [@Brisc\_Rubal](#): > > I’ve been playing this game for 17 years, and I’ve never seen a single argument, reddit post, forum post or the like saying that people were getting sick playing EVE because of the Trig expansion. That infers an issue with your ability to notice such, or otherwise a lack of trying. But as you say, that’s (currently) on the players. What’s more concerning to me (asides from you thinking reddit is a more popular platform for discussing EVE than Discord), regarding the Trigvasions, is how overworked the programmers sounded. > [@Calamity\_Unleashed](#): > > No one should feel obligated to surrender time or enjoyment to a playstyle or mechanic that is oblivious to the concept of Health, in all it’s facets. I agree. Yet the Triglavian Invasions and Havoc both made it to release. However, the Trigvasions were temporary, and Havoc promises to just be an infinite loop. So here we sit. I personally don’t put in more time than I can or want, but I am still worried about the more fanatical homies. Apparently that now includes the Null man over there. ---
**Author:** ![Tipa\_Riot](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tipa_riot/32/443513_2.png) [@Tipa\_Riot](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tipa_Riot)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582/100 "2023-12-09T13:51:59Z")
> [@Jesoph\_Swolin](#): > > These people spent years building up a highsec system so everyone could mine and farm under highsec rules. There is no “building up” needed, everybody can come to any system and do everything what the environment offers. You talk like you “own” those systems, but this is roleplay on your side. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582.md?page=4) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-havoc-content-in-it-s-current-form-will-physically-and-mentally-hurt-players-if-continued/430582.md?page=6)