# The Lies of the Caldari State **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2021, 1:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474 "2021-02-19T13:11:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 12:40am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/61 "2021-03-13T00:40:47Z")
> [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > I suppose international rulings are important if Guristas were party to them. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > Guristas don’t measure a person by what they’re entitled to, but by what they have earned. I admire the consistent messaging; carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 12:47am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/62 "2021-03-13T00:47:17Z")
The messaging is consistent: if Guristas were party to international rulings regarding prisoners then prisoners would be entitled to whatever articles of conduct are contained therein. Since Guristas have agreed to no such convention, then prisoners are entitled to nothing. It might even be said Guristas that since don’t measure a person by what they’re entitled to, then there will never be a signing of documents that entitle others to that which they have not earned. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 12:52am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/63 "2021-03-13T00:52:35Z")
> [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > Guristas don’t measure a person by what they’re entitled to > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > if Guristas were party to international rulings regarding prisoners then prisoners would be entitled to > [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > I admire the consistent messaging; carry on. I didn’t think you’d actually do it. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 1:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/64 "2021-03-13T01:26:39Z")
If Guristas do not agree to prisoners having entitlements then prisoners cannot be judged by Guristas to have entitlements. Seems tautological enough to me. I see how it might be confusing if trying to take quotes of context from discussion of Guristas treatment of prisoners, however. Try something else, Saronu instead of aiming to be a bargain basement Arrendis – you might get somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Tanagura\_Amoii](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tanagura_amoii/32/310830_2.png) [@Tanagura\_Amoii](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tanagura_Amoii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/65 "2021-03-13T02:01:53Z")
Looking at the problem from the perspective of “where do Guristas fall on the abuse of prisoner’s scale,” they are certainly an improvement over Nation, Drifter, or Triglavian flavors of cybernetic abomination. Or Blood Raiders, for obvious dietary reasons. Or Amarr, who are primarily fasting Blood Raiders that try to keep the quiet voice quiet. Or Angels, who will at least do prisoners the favor of killing them efficiently before cutting them into spare parts. Or Serpentis, whose prisoners die of neglect because snorting conduit fluid comes first. With respect to civilizations other than Amarr, I’m sure it depends on the specific prisoner and crime. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:41am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/66 "2021-03-13T03:41:35Z")
> [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > exacting their toll upon their oppressors At first, clear statement that treatment is earned > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > international rulings are important if Guristas were party to them Shortly thereafter claiming that non-signatory status absolves the Guristas of obligation. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > don’t measure a person by what they’re entitled to, but by what they have earned Complete change of position that Guristas don’t a damn about entitlement after it was explained that signatories are both entitled and obligated. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > if Guristas were party to Surely a completely irrelevant point if entitlement as a concept is rejected. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > Guristas have agreed to no such convention, then prisoners are entitled to nothing. Straying back into validating entitlement by again asserting it to be the Guristas’ non-signatory status responsible for the prisoners lack of entitlement, not only referencing a concept repeatedly rejected, but misrepresenting the reality of that status. A reality that would be better described by the sentence, _because the Guristas are not party to such a convention, neither party has such entitlements_. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > there will never be a signing of documents that entitle others to that which they have not earned This is a new position, not previously explored, asserting that it is a matter of ideology that the Guristas will not sign treaties with the eager nations of this cluster is not remotely convincing; it is far more likely that there will never be a signing of any document with the Guristas because no ruler or representative would give them the tacit acceptance of doing so, and should there be any reticence on the part of the Guristas, it is far more likely to be that their venality precludes signing any document that limits their _entitlement_ to steal whatever they wish. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > If Guristas do not agree to prisoners having entitlements then prisoners cannot be judged by Guristas to have entitlements. In isolation, a reasonable statement; but not remotely consistent with what you have previously asserted. Like every other plastic pirate to frequent this forum you flip flop between the ideas that you are not accountable to the laws of nations because you reject them, and that you are not accountable to the laws of nations because you are excluded from them. The only thing consistent in your messaging is that each was apparently made without reference to the others. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:37am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/67 "2021-03-13T06:37:30Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > you are not accountable to the laws of nations because you reject them, and that you are not accountable to the laws of nations because you are excluded from them. That is not a binary proposition: one can reject laws of nations, and be excluded from the laws of nations due to it. However, I think you’re reading too much into a statement regarding prisoners which can be surmised simply as: 1. Guristas do not practice entitlement (legal or otherwise) as regards prisoners. 2. Interstellar treaty would bestow entitlements upon prisoners party to it. 3. Guristas are not party to interstellar treaty, therefore point 1 holds. I have not expressed an opinion in this thread on what I think Guristas are entitled to, if at all. ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/68 "2021-03-13T15:11:51Z")
The exclusion is rendered inconsequential by the rejection, and every argument based upon the Guristas’ exclusion form interstellar assemblies; by you and those like you are in bad faith. The Guristas are pirates and smugglers, it has only _ever_ been the vanity of capsuleers to present them otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/69 "2021-03-13T17:14:02Z")
As far as I am aware, I never argued for the inclusion of the Guristas in an interstellar treaty – I only made the true statement that if we were, it would entitle prisoners taken to the provisos of those treaties. Neither have I denied that Guristas are pirates, after all the full name taken by the organization is: “Guristas Pirates”. Piracy being the theft of goods and property through violence and force of arms, activities of which Guristas often partake. So call me bemused at the attempt at a “'gotcha” when I have not engaged in any duplicity on the violence involved in Guristas operations, on the contrary I have pointed them out with pride. ---
**Author:** ![Diana\_Kim](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/diana_kim/32/382972_2.png) [@Diana\_Kim](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Diana_Kim)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/70 "2021-03-13T17:35:44Z")
> [@Morgana\_Tsukiyo](#): > > Abide by international ruling regarding war and prisioners, either by a moral imperative or at least an effort to avoid an escalation that completely degrades the social fabric? They are criminals and outlaws, Ms. Tsukiyo, even full name of their organization shows that: “Guristas Pirates”. **A thief must sit in a jail, not behind a negotiation table.** ---
**Author:** ![Saronu\_Yassavi](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/saronu_yassavi/32/386208_2.png) [@Saronu\_Yassavi](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Saronu_Yassavi)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 5:43pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/71 "2021-03-13T17:43:42Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > argument based upon the Guristas’ exclusion > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > argued for the inclusion of the Guristas Not remotely the same, and this entire sad tirade could reasonably be described as duplicitous. While it’s true you’ve not explicitly argued for their inclusion, the consistent framing of the Guristas as a peer can only be dishonest or delusional; they have never been, are not presently, and are never likely to be a peer to even the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/72 "2021-03-13T20:20:57Z")
> [@Saronu\_Yassavi](#): > > While it’s true you’ve not explicitly argued for their inclusion, the consistent framing of the Guristas as a peer can only be dishonest or delusional; they have never been, are not presently, and are never likely to be a peer to even the Republic. I have no idea what happens in the other cells but nation building is not anywhere on the agenda of my own. You’re arguing with shadows and figments in your own mind, and not with anything I’ve actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/73 "2021-03-13T20:38:23Z")
Veik? I just feel like I should point out: your argument, which started out as something like, “you who have been betrayed by the false promises of the State, come join us and make something better,” has kinda devolved into, “civilization is a fraud; join us in abandoning it.” It’s kind of the same drift you see, not coincidentally, from statements like “we won’t lie to you” to “we won’t even pretend we’ll try to protect you.” For example: a lot of the practical reason for being a little careful about how you treat prisoners has to do with maybe wanting to keep your own people in one piece when they themselves get captured. Moral concerns aside, treating prisoners well is ultimately an act of self-preservation. A world of bare-knuckled conflict where the strong contend and the vulnerable suffer might have limited appeal for people who may not personally be, you know, ultra-enhanced killing machines? That kind of freedom has limited utility. Being “honest” about it isn’t going to make the horror any sweeter. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/74 "2021-03-13T20:59:55Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > For example: a lot of the practical reason for being a little careful about how you treat prisoners has to do with maybe wanting to keep your own people in one piece when they themselves get captured. Moral concerns aside, treating prisoners well is ultimately an act of self-preservation. True, but I already pointed out that as far as prisoners are concerned between Guristas and the State it has already very much devolved to tit for tat in terms of mistreatment. There’s no real “out” of it, just acceptance that it is what is – they brutalize us, we brutalize them, and it doesn’t really matter much of a damn who started first. Also, I’ll be honest: I was never arguing in favour of making something better. I was giving a speech in my initial post, and in order to be convincing to my audience at the time I had to speak with authenticity and honesty to what I know. I was expounding on what I felt was an already existent sense of grievance among those I spoke to, and I was not offering to build a better future, I was offering the strength to pursue one thing only: revenge. Because that’s my truth, and that’s the truth I spoke. I saw in the people of that crowd the same desire in me. To seek vengeance on those who lied, who abused their trust, and who failed in their duty. A State which discarded those they saw as no longer of any use or fit for purpose, and who balk when those that they denigrated make them bleed in turn. ---
**Author:** ![Tanagura\_Amoii](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/tanagura_amoii/32/310830_2.png) [@Tanagura\_Amoii](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Tanagura_Amoii)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/75 "2021-03-13T21:53:53Z")
All modern dynasties, in every society, yes, even the romanticized Rouvenor, began as murderous brigands. When they pacified the land under their rule, they took pains to insist brigandry was bad. So long as they delivered peace and security, they honored the feudal bargain, and overlooking their hypocrisy was in the collective interest. This is why I would frame the proposition as “those murderous brigands over there broke the contract. Support us in beheading them, for we will honor our obligations.” Even if a new dynasty of brigands ultimately fails to live up to the contract (and it will), the act of punishing those who breached earlier remains a valuable contribution to the arc of civilization. There must always be a fear among ruling castes that they can be replaced for failing. ---
**Author:** ![Remilia\_Malitia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remilia_malitia/32/394766_2.png) [@Remilia\_Malitia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remilia_Malitia)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/76 "2021-03-13T22:15:22Z")
You know, you probably would receive a lot more sympathy from the cluster at large if you at the very least were honest in your goals and motivations. You are a pirate, one motivated by her own greed above all else, and have found comradery among other like-minded, disgraceful thieves. This farcical attempt to frame it as an ideological struggle meant to liberate those who join you from the big bad corrupt State are nothing short of embarrassing. Even among outlaw groups, you chose to align yourself with the most dishonorable and greedy of all. Blooders, for all their brutality, can at least be seen abiding by their twisted faith. Serpentis and Angels at least try to put on a facsimile of legitimacy in conducting their business, and Sansha’s slaves are nothing but the tragic victims of a runaway, viral corruption, not to be treated any different than organic rogue drones. The Guristas alone stand as a proud incarnation of humanity’s darkest, most egotistical vices, a blatant disregard for rules and morality, even their own, captive in their never-ending struggle to satisfy their ceaseless greed. I would find you as pitiful as the victims under Sansha’s control had you not consciously chosen to degrade yourselves in such a manner. So please, unless your goal is to make yourself out to be even more of a sad joke of a person, try to cut down on the ideological drivel, lest we start thinking you are stupid enough to believe it yourself, rather than just deceitful. ---
**Author:** ![Aria\_Jenneth](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/aria_jenneth/32/469792_2.png) [@Aria\_Jenneth](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Aria_Jenneth)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/77 "2021-03-14T01:11:44Z")
> [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > I was not offering to build a better future, I was offering the strength to pursue one thing only: revenge. What symmetry. The State megas command allegiance by swearing to preserve the Caldari way of life and seek revenge against those who wronged them. “Starsi: Tastes Like Vengeance.” Now you offer them the same, but more pure: nothing but revenge. Which, for all that State culture tends to talk it up, most capsuleers with any significant combat experience can tell you the advisability of eagerly seeking and billions of suffering innocents can point to the costs of. It seems like fate is making a bitter jest. Or else you are. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/78 "2021-03-14T01:46:48Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Now you offer them the same, but more pure: nothing but revenge. Vengeance is a lot like Crash – it’s always better when pure and uncut. In the end, my anger and rage at what Kaalakiota and the Navy did to me has yet to subside, so I remain willing to walk my path of revenge regardless of what the price in lives and blood costs me. I cannot forget nor can I forgive what was done to me. One might remark that’s a selfish reason, to which I would respond that yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/vehaima_zekaarin/32/260875_2.png) [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Vehaima_Zekaarin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 7:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/79 "2021-03-14T07:03:04Z")
> [@Remilia\_Malitia](#): > > You know, you probably would receive a lot more sympathy from the cluster at large if you at the very least were honest in your goals and motivations. > [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > Neither have I denied that Guristas are pirates, after all the full name taken by the organization is: “Guristas Pirates”. Piracy being the theft of goods and property through violence and force of arms, activities of which Guristas often partake. I feel I have been honest. I might even say as a pirate, sympathy is neither desired nor given. ---
**Author:** ![Remilia\_Malitia](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/remilia_malitia/32/394766_2.png) [@Remilia\_Malitia](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Remilia_Malitia)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2021, 7:26am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474/80 "2021-03-14T07:26:06Z")
> [@Vehaima\_Zekaarin](#): > > I feel I have been honest. I might even say as a pirate, sympathy is neither desired nor given. Really now? The what was that hilarious little speech all about? Everyone lucid enough to even be considered remotely sentient can clearly see it is all meaningless fluff that is actively contradicted by reality, so why even bother if you aren’t trying (_very_ poorly) to somehow ennoble the pack of degenerates you call your comrades? Oh! Were you perhaps trying to submit a piece of fiction for the writing contest going on? If so you should probably change this thread’s topic to contain the correct tag! Don’t want the judges to erroneously think this is supposed to be sincere! [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474.md?page=3) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-lies-of-the-caldari-state/296474.md?page=5)