# The menace of subcap proliferation **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [September 26, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468 "2018-09-26T16:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/21 "2018-09-27T01:49:23Z")
Sure, all 100% true. But what do you expect, there’s been a war against big ships for years now. It started with the battleship years ago, so CCP nerfed them, while power-creeping up the small ships. The consequence is, I don’t see any fleets flying battleships anymore, and haven’t for years. I’m training Cruisers V now so I can get into fleets in my corp because they absolutely won’t fly bigger ships, only tech II frigates and cruisers. “Bigger shouldn’t be better!” they screamed on the forums over and over (nevermind that what they wanted was “smaller is better”). And now they’re coming for capships. ---
**Author:** ![erg\_cz](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/erg_cz/32/392645_2.png) [@erg\_cz](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/erg_cz)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/22 "2018-09-27T07:07:04Z")
From the killboard, last few normal ships used in combat per alliance: 1. Titans + supercarriers(total) 2. GSF 636+1151 (1787) 3. TEST 180+330 (510) 4. NC. 280+201 (481) 5. INIT 110+161 (271) 6. PL 111+147 (258) ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 11:32am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/25 "2018-09-27T11:32:46Z")
I think the feelings of people were hurt. First they heard about capitals being a rare sight, that piloting one was a lot of repsonisbility and it was hardcore. Today you can get carrier for a price of Marauder and n̴o̴b̴o̴d̴y̴ ̴b̴a̴t̴s̴ ̴a̴n̴ ̴e̴y̴e̴ some people are jelly. Or they just get into capital too easy and are disappointed how much there is people like them and they are not speshal. Or there is a much of crying because you see them too much and that stopped being something of value emotionally, rarity is curious. ---
**Author:** ![Drigo\_Segvian](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/drigo_segvian/32/325541_2.png) [@Drigo\_Segvian](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Drigo_Segvian)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 12:04pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/26 "2018-09-27T12:04:59Z")
0 of 10 - not even a good troll 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/27 "2018-09-27T12:23:16Z")
> [@Not\_A\_TrolI](#): > > Question to any people who are even a little anti-capital ship… why? Whats wrong with scaling up, bigger ships being strong and being able to do more? > > Battleships need a buff, a big one. > Capital ships should always be really scary and get more scary as they get bigger. You are asking incorrect question. The question is not wether they should be bigger badder etc. The question is by how much. Take your balance curve: 2-3 frigs = dead cruiser, 2-3 cruisers = dead battleship, 2-3 battleship = what dead cap ? How much should the multiplier be ? Should it take 1000 sub caps to kill 1 carrier ? 2000 ? 50000 ? 1000000 ? Where is the scale balance that follows the balance line ? Add to that many caps are too cheap by a factor of 10-100 at least. Too many fully well fitted sub caps are more expensive then too many equivalent quality fitted caps. Next, risk vs reward. Ever heard of it in Eve, I see people that live in NS bring it up constantly, its time they take some of their own ■■■■ and return caps to being risky. There is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too little risk for caps. Zero or almost zero risk while ratting and mining, it needs to be more risky on expenential rate, literally. At this point honestly its best to just divide the ■■■■■■■ game. Have completely seperate servers or something, leave caps with caps and have a whole separate sub cap server. ---
**Author:** ![mkint](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mkint/32/14424_2.png) [@mkint](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/mkint)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 12:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/28 "2018-09-27T12:23:17Z")
I like how many people fail to understand the joke. Granted, I was hoping it was satire, but I guess comedic hyperbole is almost as good. At least it shows the OP is smart enough to keep his pet cause in perspective. Conversely, it appears quite a few people aren’t even smart enough to recognize when someone’s being a comedian… which is also probably a pretty effective filter to measure who might have a valid opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Mingja](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mingja/32/50857_2.png) [@Mingja](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mingja)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/29 "2018-09-27T13:19:21Z")
> [@Fluffy\_Moe](#): > > Add to that many caps are too cheap by a factor of 10-100 at least. Too many fully well fitted sub caps are more expensive then too many equivalent quality fitted caps. The cheapest capital is a Fax at around 2billion. Which regular subcap costs that much without blingy? None. Just pointing that out. Also, how many T3C’s does one need to kill a Hel? Not many. Battleships just suck, that’s right but compare T3 D/C and you’ll get a different story. ---
**Author:** ![Nana\_Skalski](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nana_skalski/32/489985_2.png) [@Nana\_Skalski](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nana_Skalski)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/30 "2018-09-27T14:36:32Z")
I wonder how many people were thinking they are wasting their time in high sec flying battleships and doing missions, and then succumbing to the null call and ending up as a cog in Imperium, ratting and mining machine. I wonder how many of them heard they need a capital piloting alt. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Keno\_Skir](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/keno_skir/32/460582_2.png) [@Keno\_Skir](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Keno_Skir)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/31 "2018-09-27T15:23:36Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > What are we going to do about this? We’re going to wait as long as it takes for you to give up and stop posting rubbish like this. You’re trying to be funny but it’s coming off super awkward and forced 😒 ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Foambreaker](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/salt_foambreaker/32/280119_2.png) [@Salt\_Foambreaker](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Salt_Foambreaker)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/32 "2018-09-27T15:39:01Z")
> [@Keno\_Skir](#): > > super awkward and forced This. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/33 "2018-09-27T17:39:58Z")
> [@Fluffy\_Moe](#): > > The question is not wether they should be bigger badder etc. The question is by how much. Take your balance curve: 2-3 frigs = dead cruiser, 2-3 cruisers = dead battleship, 2-3 battleship = what dead cap ? > > How much should the multiplier be ? Should it take 1000 sub caps to kill 1 carrier ? 2000 ? 50000 ? 1000000 ? Where is the scale balance that follows the balance line ? QUESTION: Would it solve the problem for you if we simply inserted X number of additional ship lines between battleship and capships? EXAMPLE: If it went Battlecruiser → Battleship → Capitaldestroyer → Capitalcruiser → Capitalship (insert more ship lines if that isn’t enough), would that solve the problem for you? If so, your issue isn’t with capships, it’s with how many lines of ships are between point A and point B. If not, then your issue isn’t the multiplier, you just don’t like capships. > [@](#): > > Add to that many caps are too cheap by a factor of 10-100 at least. Make them any more expensive, and they probably won’t be worth fielding. I make more ISK running incursions in a battleship, with far less risk, ISK, skilling, and pain-in-the-ass, downtime, etc. than I do in a carrier. I can’t imagine why I’d pay 10-100 times more for a carrier than I currently do. > [@](#): > > There is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too little risk for caps. Zero or almost zero risk while ratting and mining, it needs to be more risky on expenential rate, literally. I think I can just stop responding at this point. Forget ‘multiplier’ or ‘this’ or ‘that’ - you just hate capships. Period. > [@](#): > > At this point honestly its best to just divide the ■■■■■■■ game. Have completely seperate servers or something, leave caps with caps and have a whole separate sub cap server. Agreed. And you can move battleships over to the ‘cap’ server if you want, too, so we can do them right over there. ---
**Author:** ![Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/nicolai_serkanner/32/358049_2.png) [@Nicolai\_Serkanner](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Nicolai_Serkanner)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/34 "2018-09-27T17:47:17Z")
> [@Fluffy\_Moe](#): > > At this point honestly its best to just divide the ■■■■■■■ game. Have completely seperate servers or something, leave caps with caps and have a whole separate sub cap server. No. Go away! ---
**Author:** ![Gerard\_Amatin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/gerard_amatin/32/481361_2.png) [@Gerard\_Amatin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Gerard_Amatin)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/35 "2018-09-27T22:22:10Z")
I may be completely wrong, but as a relatively new player I see the ship tree of Eve like a pyramid: Frigates on bottom, Titan on top. Yes, you can kill bigger ships with small ships, but you usually need multiple ships to kill the bigger ships. The problem of cap proliferation is that with fleets of hundreds of titans this pyramid isn’t really a pyramid anymore, but a square. Who cares about bringing lots of frigates, or cruisers, when you can bring lots of titans instead? On the same note, nothing is wrong with subcap proliferation. There’s supposed to be lots and lots of small ships flying around. It’s the big ships that are supposed to be ‘special’, not the small ones. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/36 "2018-09-28T00:03:59Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Make them any more expensive, and they probably won’t be worth fielding. I make more ISK running incursions in a battleship, with far less risk, ISK, skilling, and pain-in-the-ass, downtime, etc. than I do in a carrier. I can’t imagine why I’d pay 10-100 times more for a carrier than I currently do. Thats funny cause I make in about 2-3 hours carrier ratting which I utterly fkn hate BTW, but have to do for income, what I used to make in incursions in 2-3 weeks. If I had my way I wouldn’t even log onto my NS alt (or what has become my lowest played alt) but I do have to have the ISK from time to time. If you can’t field a PvP fit cap how do you field a properly blinged incursion BS ? Have you checked zkill lately and looked at total fit costs ? You should go have a look. > [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > QUESTION: Would it solve the problem for you if we simply inserted X number of additional ship lines between battleship and capships? EXAMPLE: If it went Battlecruiser -\> Battleship -\> Capitaldestroyer -\> Capitalcruiser -\> Capitalship (insert more ship lines if that isn’t enough), would that solve the problem for you? If so, your issue isn’t with capships, it’s with how many lines of ships are between point A and point B. If not, then your issue isn’t the multiplier, you just don’t like capships. There is another thread over in the PvP sub-forums about this, one of the suggestions is actually a really good one, and that is caps should only be able to shoot / direct fighters at other caps only. The bubbles, remote bursts etc. are kinda up for debate, but if they were unable to target sub caps altogether this would also largely solve a lot of the issues. If caps can target and engage sub caps then sub caps need XL weapons, across the board maybe except frigs and destroyers, but all else should have them. There are a lot of things that can be done, but something needs to be done, not nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/37 "2018-09-28T01:15:38Z")
You didn’t answer the question. In either case, I can’t think of an idea I disagree with more - caps can only target/shoot other caps. So rather than do that, why don’t you just advocate removing them from the game? If that happens, personally I’ll just move on to another game, but I’m just a drop in the bucket. Eve can withstand the loss of a single player. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/38 "2018-09-28T15:47:25Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > In either case, I can’t think of an idea I disagree with more - caps can only target/shoot other caps. So rather than do that, why don’t you just advocate removing them from the game? If that happens, personally I’ll just move on to another game, but I’m just a drop in the bucket. Eve can withstand the loss of a single player. I don’t think making more caps and more ship lines is the answer. That is my answer to your question. Better solutions have been listed here and in all the otehr places. As far as you leaving the game, well, if you’re so risk averse that you _ **have to** _ engage sub caps in caps, then Eve is not for you. ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/39 "2018-09-28T16:17:34Z")
> [@Fluffy\_Moe](#): > > I don’t think making more caps and more ship lines is the answer. That is my answer to your question. Then your issue isn’t that capships break your imagined rule of ‘every tier has to be beatable by 2-3 ships of the previous tier,’ that’s just a red herring and BS you threw out. Your real issue is, you just don’t like capships because they don’t fit your playstyle, and you want to nerf or eliminate playstyles that aren’t your playstyle. > [@](#): > > …well, if you’re so risk averse that you _ **have to** _ engage sub caps in caps, then Eve is not for you. 1 - You have no idea how risk averse I am, or am not. 2 - You have no idea whether I believe I have to engage subcaps in caps, or not. In fact, I’ve played Eve for years, but only got my first cap within the last few months. 3 - As much as you would like it to be so, it isn’t up to you to determine whether Eve is for me or not for me. 4 - I can play the ad hominem troll attack game too. “If you can’t figure out how to beat capships without nerfing them or eliminating them from the game, then Eve is not for you.” ---
**Author:** ![March\_rabbit](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/march_rabbit/32/453160_2.png) [@March\_rabbit](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/March_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/40 "2018-09-28T16:19:36Z")
> [@Fluffy\_Moe](#): > > Thats funny cause I make in about 2-3 hours carrier ratting which I utterly fkn hate BTW, but have to do for income, what I used to make in incursions in 2-3 weeks. Ugh? Last time i was ratting in a carrier i was able to make like 60 million/tick (180-200 mil/hour). Say i’m really bad at it so average for carrier ratting is 400 million/hour. Still 2-3 weeks of incursions? 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/beast_of_revelations/32/413187_2.png) [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Beast_of_Revelations)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/41 "2018-09-28T16:36:38Z")
Yeah he was so off on that ‘estimate’ that I didn’t bother responding to it. You can make 35 mil ticks running incursions in a non-elitist, relaxed group. You can make more in an elitist, ‘shiny’ incursion group. I personally make 30 mil ticks in a (non-super) carrier with T1 equipment (T1 fighters, T1 FSUs, etc). It’s roughly the same ISK as incursions, except I don’t need a 1.3 billion ISK hull to run incursions, I can be in highsec and run incursions, I can do incursions ‘risk free’ (zero losses or ganks ever, and I can even buy daily insurance just in case), I don’t need a solid year or more of straight skilling to get into ships to run incursions, I can do incursions with neuts in local, and I can do incursions while picking my nose, eating pizza, and watching Netflix. The plus factor for me with carrier ratting is, I don’t need to wait in a line to get accepted into a fleet, and I don’t need to wait for a fleet to be ‘up’ or an incursion to spawn, I can do it anytime I want provided local is clear (which isn’t always the case). But is the ISK better? Is the risk better? Is the return on investment, in terms of capital outlay and skillpoints needed better? No. Now, I understand that when I get into supers, the ISK will be better. But now? No. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy\_Moe](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/fluffy_moe/32/11132_2.png) [@Fluffy\_Moe](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Fluffy_Moe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468/42 "2018-09-28T16:45:00Z")
> [@Beast\_of\_Revelations](#): > > Then your issue isn’t that capships break your imagined rule of ‘every tier has to be beatable by 2-3 ships of the previous tier,’ that’s just a red herring and BS you threw out. Your real issue is, you just don’t like capships because they don’t fit your playstyle, and you want to nerf or eliminate playstyles that aren’t your playstyle. And you and capships have done what if not exactly and precisely that ? Also, its not just my playstyle, have a look around, its a kinda no brainer as plain as night and day. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-menace-of-subcap-proliferation/109468.md?page=3)