# The nature and end of Pax Amarria **URL:** \ **Category:** Intergalactic Summit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930 "2019-12-11T21:13:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 5:34am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/21 "2019-12-12T05:34:25Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > This is the pessimistic attitude It’s not an _attitude_. At the moment it is _a fact_. You can only know truth if you face the facts. To say the Empire _might change_ and forget Reclaiming completely would be optimism. To claim anyone who walks in their Faith or supports their Empire _now_ does not, knowingly or unknowingly, support violent Reclaiming and holding what’s Reclaimed is not optimism - it’s blindness. ---
**Author:** ![Ascentior](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/ascentior/32/266358_2.png) [@Ascentior](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Ascentior)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:28am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/22 "2019-12-12T06:28:53Z")
Do you believe everyone who works within the framework of The Republic should be assumed to knowingly or unknowingly support the act of terrorism and acts of war committed by the Elder Fleet? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:53am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/23 "2019-12-12T06:53:50Z")
This is not quite the same thing. The Reclaiming is an _ongoing_ policy, not one act. You could condemn that attack, and be quite plausible, since no similar attacks are ongoing or are part of the Republic’s stated politics. Are _you_, as a high-ranking member of PIE Inc, saying that Reclaiming is at the moment _not_ a key tenet of the Faith and the Empire? ---
**Author:** ![Arsia\_Elkin](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/arsia_elkin/32/388703_2.png) [@Arsia\_Elkin](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Arsia_Elkin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 6:55am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/24 "2019-12-12T06:55:22Z")
At face value, you are correct to say that everyone who supports the Empire is at the very least also lending some support, however small for any actions the Empire takes. Even by preforming completely nonviolent tasks with no connection to the Reclaiming for and within the Empire, we often free up others who would have had to preform those tasks to participate in another Reclaiming-related task. This isn’t to say that we Amarr don’t see that the Empire is flawed: all of us who paid attention in our lessons on our three major symbols know very well that the Empire’s flawed nature is reflected in the Imperial Seal we use to represent it. Were the Empire to be perfect, it would look like this: ![perfectamarrsmall](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/original/3X/e/6/e6946220d9b042ac1aef3d8b6ab3b21c6f31076a.png) But I think that stopping the argument there overlooks the fact that the Empire is very difficult to change from the outside. The vast majority of those in the Empire will not listen to those who do not follow our Faith and who have not dedicated themselves to the prosperity of the Empire. While it is very difficult for and should be approached carefully by those of the Faith and with laudable service records, an outsider would likely have a much more difficult time. This puts many of us in very difficult situations where our actions do, as you say, lend some degree of support to things we might not be thrilled about, but I’m just not convinced there’s much choice in the matter if our primary goals are to fix the problems we have here. ---
**Author:** ![Deitra\_Vess](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/deitra_vess/32/249726_2.png) [@Deitra\_Vess](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Deitra_Vess)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:01am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/25 "2019-12-12T07:01:42Z")
> [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Sure, but another society that projects its beliefs onto others is the Gallente Federation. Should they not have interfered in Amarrian society by sponsoring the Minmatar Rebellion and just left you there? There’s a very big point your missing. They supplied weapons. **We** freed ourselves. If they deployed their navy and crushed the Amarrs’, your argument would be more than valid. Another point to make would be that while our systems, our beliefs, and our values are similar enough that yes it is a separate culture intervened in our affairs, they did it under the similar values that were and are still shared. In essence they simply lended a hand to those of a similar ideology and did not directly interfere with Amarrian society. They simply supported our own culture’s rebirth from the ashes of very direct interference on Amarr’s part. > [@Aria\_Jenneth](#): > > Even if a Gallentean tries to persuade me of the virtues of democracy, I don’t really feel like I need to respond by carving his giblets into mince-- even if he’s persistent (and, as a culture, they are). Stopping my ears is enough, at worst. Pointing out the system’s frailties (like a tendency under stress to abruptly collapse into mob rule) seems better still. When the Amarr try to persuade me to believe the virtues of their religion and society, I don’t feel that way either. With regards to the Gallante and their democracy I honestly feel they do a disservice to their own ethos with their treatment of the Caldari State. I also have fought them as my loyalties lay with freedom and self determination (I will say, I’d fight for the Achuran and Jin-Mei as well though… well, I like having a home to return to) over an old ally who seems to have lost the message that once connected us. To me at least this is something every warrior should fight for. I don’t believe a lot of them actually support the message they preach, more like lip service. I’ll toss this one out for, well whatever. A few posts after this one I’m quoting you did that thing Elsebeth and co complain about. I have to admit, well worded and ya you got got what the gist of what I was saying perfectly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 7:04am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/26 "2019-12-12T07:04:08Z")
> [@Arsia\_Elkin](#): > > This isn’t to say that we Amarr don’t see that the Empire is flawed I never said I think this is the case, and I never said I do not applaud the efforts of the Amarr who try and work that change. And I sympathize with the need for them to _appear_ like they believe in the whole package, because being declared heretic would obviously complicate their work immensely. But that is about working to _change_ the Amarr. It is acknowledging Amarr _is not_ at the moment the nice, peaceful, friendly thing that their outriders tend to pose it as. Again, the view that it can be _changed_ is optimistic. The view that it can be _ignored_ is nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/27 "2019-12-12T12:20:45Z")
No one is asking you to ignore it. And optimism, at the right times, is a powerful tool. And while you recognize the work of the Amarrians who are trying to improve the Empire, blanket statements like “peaceful and nice Amarr are an illusion” in your original post only hurt their cause. You are a respected leader, Captain, which means that you of all people must be careful with your words. People—not just capsuleers, but Matari of all stripes—listen when you speak, and yet the hearing of those people is limited. They’ll take the gist of what you say and run with it. And “there are no peaceful and kind Amarr” is a much more consumable message than “…and I applaud their efforts, however small.” You asked for facts? One of the largest Amarr loyalist alliances has not deployed to the warzone. They have spent far more time fighting mutual threats such as the Triglavians and Blood Raiders, at a time when no Matari loyalist alliances were regularly defending against Triglavians and their participation against the Blood Raiders was mostly limited to one individual. As reported by the Scope, the Ardishapur heir—hated for his predecessor’s destruction at Starkman—met with the Sarum heir to discuss the latter’s decision to call for the current Reclaiming in the warzone. Just before that, Ardishapur had taken a significant step toward equality for the Ammatar by raising the Mandate’s governor to the title of Holder (granted, a title that Matari should frown upon), the first time in history that that’s been done. Meanwhile, most if not all of the evil that’s been perpetrated in the Empire of late can be traced back to one man. Minmatar and Amarr alike have fallen victim to his self-serving schemes. He wants to sow division and hatred, and you know what? When we glower at each other from within our safe places, we empower and encourage his despicable plots. That’s the sort of rhetoric we should be backing away from, not embracing. For all the talk about swords these days, there’s never been a better time to unite against common threats—like the man who’s sent his fellows to attack Amarr and Matari alike, or the literal invading force that is attempting to take over human space by converting our star systems into space more like their own. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:38pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/28 "2019-12-12T12:38:02Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > blanket statements like “peaceful and nice Amarr are an illusion” > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > the whole “peaceful and nice Amarrians” is largely an illusion _anywhere above the personal level_ Emphasis added. Also: > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > I never said I do not applaud the efforts of the Amarr who try and work that change ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:46pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/29 "2019-12-12T12:46:27Z")
And my argument is that peaceful and nice Amarrians _above_ the personal level _do exist_. In fact, my _entire post_ is about people I barely know (most of the leadership of LUMEN) or have never met (Ardishapur and his House, the Ammatar governor and his). And this was my response to your point about applauding their efforts: > [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > And while you recognize the work of the Amarrians who are trying to improve the Empire, blanket statements like “peaceful and nice Amarr are an illusion” in your original post only hurt their cause. > > You are a respected leader, Captain, which means that you of all people must be careful with your words. People—not just capsuleers, but Matari of all stripes—listen when you speak, and yet the hearing of those people is limited. They’ll take the gist of what you say and run with it. And “there are no peaceful and kind Amarr” is a much more consumable message than “…and I applaud their efforts, however small.” Care to respond? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/30 "2019-12-12T12:58:32Z")
My response to that is what i said originally: to know the truth you have to face the facts. Ardishapur is not an opponent to Reclaiming. He might disagree with Sarum’s methods, but he does not disagree with slavery, or with the overarching goal of bringing us all into the fold. A Nefantar Holder in the Mandate is not a sign of end to slavery - it is a sign of exceptions, possibly even changes, in _who can own them_. Ni-Kunni Holders exist. So do Ni-Kunni slaves. That is what the elevation is supposed to bring. It is an appeasement to the population of the Mandate, just like _the whole Mandate_ is to begin with: do not fight the system, please, join it instead. LUMEN are not opponents to Reclaiming, either, not most of them and not as an orgnization, even if some, even many, of them are opponents to Reclaiming _by force_, or by force _in this particular case_. Some of them are abolitionists, even stairway entries (don’t worry, I am not going to name any names but hi guys, keep up the good work!), but _as a whole_ they have fought us and _will_ fight us to quell rebellions and stop raids. They were a _decisive_ capsuleer force in Thebeka, they fought well, with courage and skill, and yes, _dedication_. If my words can get people to keep in mind that no matter how palatable you make the Amarr Faith, it is still a Faith about _ending all others_, I consider that a victory. ---
**Author:** ![Cain\_Aloga](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/cain_aloga/32/457080_2.png) [@Cain\_Aloga](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Cain_Aloga)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/31 "2019-12-12T12:58:57Z")
The argument that she is making is essentially a banality of evil one: I’m sure that while the majority of the Amarr subjects are decent people going about their daily lives, their acceptance and efforts go on to facilitate and allow the actions of a relatively few of the upper strata to undertake these evil and destructive actions. It is very simple: The Amarr empire is _at this very moment_ undertaking a violent recliaming by invading and attempting to enslave the population of Floseswin IV. Have the leadership of LUMEN or other so called ‘peaceful’ amarrians come out and denounce these actions? Are they calling for peace? or are they simply ignoring it and letting it play out. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/32 "2019-12-12T13:12:15Z")
> [@Cain\_Aloga](#): > > Have the leadership of LUMEN or other so called ‘peaceful’ amarrians come out and denounce these actions? Are they calling for peace? or are they simply ignoring it and letting it play out. LUMEN were the first to respond: > [@Petition to the Throne, Imperial Majesty Catiz I](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/petition-to-the-throne-imperial-majesty-catiz-i/196789): > > Dearest and Most Sublime and Imperial Majesty Catiz I, care of Cardinal Sourem, Capsuleer Emissary to the Court Chamberlain, Re: [Statement](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/militia-corruption-breaking-the-deafening-silence-on-dirty-deals/196136/85) “Additionally, His Grace has seen fit to commission labour acquisition expeditions to each and every system in the Upper Rebel Provinces currently held by the forces of the 24th Imperial Crusade. All labour acquisition specialist groups will be accompanied by troops drawn from the Shining Flame company, the Red and Silver Hand company, and the Order of St… > [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](#): > > If my words can get people to keep in mind that no matter how palatable you make the Amarr Faith, it is still a Faith about _ending all others_ , I consider that a victory. I don’t disagree with you—and I’ve had to reconcile the fact that I think the Faith is poisonous with the fact that the woman I love and want to spend my life with is duty-bound to Reclaim me. I told her to give it her best effort, because I weighed which of those things was more important to me, and the choice was obvious. Opposing the Faith is not a bad hill to die on—_but_ is it the right hill to die on when we have an actual alien force—one that either replenishes itself or has infinite forces to throw at us—attempting to take control of our suns? Are you and your alliance fighting those invaders? Or are you ignoring them and letting it play out? ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/33 "2019-12-12T13:19:15Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > Are you and your alliance fighting those invaders? Uh… yes? We have been doing it from the beginning. Commander Debes Sparre also runs antitriglav fleets with and for ARC, which should be self-evident to anyone who has paid the least bit of attention to that organization. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/34 "2019-12-12T13:30:39Z")
Really? I’ve been flying in anti-Trig fleets for months and I’ve never seen any of you there. I’m aware of Commander Sparre’s work, but aside from the fact that one person doesn’t indicate the entire alliance, I’m not sure you want to publicly associate him with ARC’s efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/35 "2019-12-12T13:31:08Z")
Yes, really. ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/36 "2019-12-12T13:40:57Z")
Then maybe our fleets ought to coordinate sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/37 "2019-12-12T13:44:46Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > our Whose, again? ---
**Author:** ![Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/astaire_quatrevaux/32/278706_2.png) [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Astaire_Quatrevaux)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/38 "2019-12-12T13:55:03Z")
Any of the ones I’ve flown with? ---
**Author:** ![Samira\_Kernher](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/samira_kernher/32/244840_2.png) [@Samira\_Kernher](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Samira_Kernher)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/39 "2019-12-12T13:59:43Z")
> [@Astaire\_Quatrevaux](#): > > Meanwhile, most if not all of the evil that’s been perpetrated in the Empire of late can be traced back to one man. This is a _vast_ underestimation of the issue. There are _many_ evil acts being perpetrated in the Empire and by Amarr that have no connection to that ‘one man’. It is a great many people. ---
**Author:** ![Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/elsebeth_rhiannon/32/418836_2.png) [@Elsebeth\_Rhiannon](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Elsebeth_Rhiannon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930/40 "2019-12-12T14:03:36Z")
> [@Samira\_Kernher](#): > > This is a _vast_ underestimation of the issue. There are _many_ evil acts being perpetrated in the Empire and by Amarr that have no connection to that ‘one man’. It is a great many people. This. Most of the evils perpetrated by the Empire are not the mustache-twirling public conspiracy deathglow kill-all-rebels-and-torture-their-families kind - not that even most of _those_ are by one man. They are of the banal, everyday kind of a slavechild’s mother sold to a faraway estate, the young lovers whipped for forbidden touches, the grandmothers punished with isolation telling their grandkids their traditional stories, miners dying of poison gasses in the atmosphere, and people generally not allowed to follow their Fates. (I will stop responding to the “your contributions don’t count if you don’t fleet with _me_” part here. We call on ARC if we need more people. Internal fleets are open to alliance members.) [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-nature-and-end-of-pax-amarria/205930.md?page=3)