# The Obsolescence of Subcapitals **URL:** \ **Category:** PvP Ships & Modules\ **Created:** [July 22, 2019, 10:10am UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281 "2019-07-22T10:10:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/149 "2019-09-04T18:53:57Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > I’m waiting… I literally told you right there that any group of jackasses can go get some sov if they want. Have you seen Tribute lately? You keep repeating “Sov” as if it’s very very difficult to get sov, when it isn’t. It’s not a rare resource. You want some sov, go get some sov. There is a ton of empty space out there and with a little bit of diplomacy you, too, can have sov. Hell, even CODE has sov! ---
**Author:** ![Officer\_Browridge](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/officer_browridge/32/480338_2.png) [@Officer\_Browridge](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Officer_Browridge)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/150 "2019-09-04T18:56:38Z")
Some real deep thoughts about cap ships coming out of high sec lately ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 7:08pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/151 "2019-09-04T19:08:18Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > > [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > > > your statement remains an [Ad Homimen](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) until you can resolve that. > > And yours is just a continual fallacy-fallacy. It’s pretty likely that if you _could_ opine thoughtfully on the subject you would have done so by this point. > "the fallacy fallacy: > “You presumed that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.” I am not stating your claim is wrong (or poorly argued), I am claiming you failed to provide an argument for it at all. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Your entrance to the thread was, “Caps are fine, could maybe even be stronger! They just need a really rare resource to fix the supply!” That is actually an decent assessment of my opinion. congrats. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > We’ve done the really rare resource thing before. It results in cartels. You don’t seem to be aware of this and, worse, you don’t seem to actually _believe_ that it would happen again, which is indicative of your ignorance on the topic. Minus the insult on my intelligence, this could be a great rebuttal if you actually provided a source for it. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Furthermore, the fundamental nature of “Really rare resource” means that people who can wield power (in the form of highly mobile, highly versatile, cost effective capital ships) will have the easiest time controlling that resource. Now _we_ have a thousand titans and _we_ control the means of making the titans, and there’s nothing _you_ can do about it because _we_ have the titans that _you_ would need to challenge our control. > > Given that the ultimate problem with cap ships is that they’re so powerful as to be absolutely necessary, _that_ is what would happen, because there’s literally no other choice. Hallelujah!!! You finally made a response/claim and actually bothered to back it up. You are correct in that this could be a problem, My counter is that this would be mitigated by spreading the resource into every single territory (choking the amount of units each spawn creates). The logistics hurdle of having to dominate **every single** system would create major challenges for creating cartels. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/152 "2019-09-04T19:11:33Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > > [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > > > I’m waiting… > > I literally told you right there that any group of jackasses can go get some sov if they want. And I responded right after that “any group of jackasses” would have a difficult time defending it from the big powers. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 7:20pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/153 "2019-09-04T19:20:15Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > Hallelujah!!! You finally made a response/claim and actually bothered to back it up. > > You are correct in that this could be a problem, My counter is that this would be mitigated by spreading the resource into every single territory (choking the amount of units each spawn creates). The logistics hurdle of having to dominate **every single** system would create major challenges for creating cartels. Yeah, I did that way up thread. You just know so little about the topic that you failed to grasp it. > [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > You are correct in that this could be a problem, My counter is that this would be mitigated by spreading the resource into every single territory (choking the amount of units each spawn creates). Goons hold the SW, DeadCO the NW, Panfam the NE, and Test the SE. Each of these organizations has enough capitals that their only credible strategic threats are each other. Except maybe DeadCo, they have to worry about Sort Dragon, too. You can defend a lot of space from one staging when your defense fleet has jump drives, and you’ve just made cap ships both more powerful, _and_ capable of being cartel-controlled. > [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > And I responded right after that “any group of jackasses” would have a difficult time defending it from the big powers. But they don’t, really, because the big powers aren’t really that interested in crushing some nobody sov holders (otherwise known as “content”). Again, see Tribute, Cobalt Edge, the fact that CODE holds sov, etc. You’re suggesting they would have a difficult time of it, and they WOULD if everyone were zealously guarding all sov null the way you **imagine** it works, but sov fights (even when there ISN’T a fight) are a chore and those guys are more likely to be “content” than a threat. You may have to make nice-nice with the biggest locals, but you absolutely can go get sov. It’s also worth noting that Sov is purely a “fixed” cost of supercap production - it does not gate the actual generation of capital ships beyond the basic requirement. You need one supercap upgraded ihub and one sotiyo and you’re in the supercap making game. Consequently, supercaps can be _purchased_, often for less than their material costs. In contrast, a cartel-controlled resource makes the hulls, themselves, effectively cartel-controlled. Now we have all the titans and you can’t even _buy_ them (as was generally the case, once upon a time, back when they were still rare and selling titans outside of your alliance was often tantamount to treason), because now they’re STILL necessary, AND there’s production scarcity, AND the best way to maintain control over production is with caps, AND you can’t contest that control without caps. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/154 "2019-09-04T20:23:46Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You can defend a lot of space from one staging when your defense fleet has jump drives, and you’ve just made cap ships both more powerful, _and_ capable of being cartel-controlled. And just to put a point on this: There’s a single staging system in the drone lands with over 220 other systems in supercap jump range. Good luck settling in to mine some super-rare titan-gas as the little guy. Surely that will be easier than controlling one sov system that literally nobody else cares about. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/155 "2019-09-04T20:47:22Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > Yeah, I did that way up thread. Perhaps, you did. I am willing to double check. > [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You just know so little about the topic that you failed to grasp it Yay! more [more attacks on my character instead of the arguments…](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) (1) Prove it. (2) Even if true: “A broken watch is certain to be right twice a day” - Lewis Carrol I have made no claims to expert knowledge. You have yet to provide the criteria for proving it regardless. Stop hiding behind a fictional “superior knowledge” that you cannot prove. You are not the Ultimate authority on this subject, please stop acting like it. I have been trying very hard to remain polite with you. I am hoping for a honest discussion with you, not a flame war. Are you capable of keeping the insults in check? ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/156 "2019-09-04T20:48:03Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > (1) Prove it. > (2) Even if true: > “A broken watch is certain to be right twice a day” - Lewis Carrol > > I have made no claims to expert knowledge. You have yet to provide the criteria for proving it regardless. Stop hiding behind a fictional “superior knowledge” that you cannot prove. You are not the Ultimate authority on this subject, please stop acting like it. > > I have been trying very hard to remain polite with you. I am hoping for a honest discussion with you, not a flame war. Are you capable of keeping the insults in check? There was a whole lot more in that post that you didn’t respond to in favor of this irrelevant tone argument. This is not so much a matter of you not being an expert on the subject so much as it is readily apparent that you don’t even have _cursory_ knowledge of it. You say things like, “Well random jackasses will never be able to hold any sov!” when anyone can readily look and see that plenty of random jackasses hold sov, because sov is reasonably available, be it through diplomacy, rental agreements, or just plain disinterest in contesting it by others, as most of the larger entities already control more sov than they could possibly make use of. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/157 "2019-09-04T20:49:43Z")
I am in the middle of responding to it as a separate post… Can I have more than litterally 30 seconds to respond please? ---
**Author:** ![Scoots\_Choco](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/scoots_choco/32/262262_2.png) [@Scoots\_Choco](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Scoots_Choco)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/158 "2019-09-04T20:50:26Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > retreating to it whenever they were unwilling to respond to the actual arguments presented. I choose to ignore off topic discussions and unrelated tangents because that’s how threads get closed. 🙂 Good try though. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/159 "2019-09-04T20:56:32Z")
Going to try and respond to each part of your post… > Goons hold the SW, DeadCO the NW, Panfam the NE, and Test the SE. > > Each of these organizations has enough capitals that their only credible strategic threats are each other. Except maybe DeadCo, they have to worry about Sort Dragon, too. > > You can defend a lot of space from one staging when your defense fleet has jump drives, and you’ve just made cap ships both more powerful, _and_ capable of being cartel-controlled. Key Strategic Resources need to be spread out enough that a single defense fleet at one staging point cannot cover them all simultaneously . If you don’t have that element, Cartels are certainly viable. Having to defend an excessive number of structure with overlapping reinforcement timers is one way of creating that scenario ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/160 "2019-09-04T21:02:32Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > Key Strategic Resources need to be spread out enough that a single defense fleet at one staging point cannot cover them all simultaneously . If you don’t have that element, Cartels are certainly viable. This is like saying, “The key to winning at football is making plays.” It’s essentially platitudinous. It sounds sensible, but let’s stop and look at the map now. I just told you over 200 systems can be covered from a **single** staging in the dronelands and that’s actually NOT the only staging up there, even. Virtually the entire corner, save some of the outer fringes, can be covered with just a few staging systems. PANFAM has the resources to cover it. That being the case… > Having to defend an excessive number of structure with overlapping reinforcement timers is one way of creating that scenario …who do you imagine is going to be reinforcing these structures? ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/161 "2019-09-04T21:03:13Z")
> But they don’t, really, because the big powers aren’t really that interested in crushing some nobody sov holders (otherwise known as “content”). Again, see Tribute, Cobalt Edge, the fact that CODE holds sov, etc. Some of the “nobody Sov Holders” are Renters, the big powers like having those. Others cant acquire systems with the moon goo production points to start their Capital Production lines. The Big blocks are happy to let newbies take some Sov, up until they become a threat. That threat comes from possession of a large number of capitals and players. It appears you did not know this… ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/162 "2019-09-04T21:03:40Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > Others cant acquire systems with the moon goo production points to start their Capital Production lines. Moon goo is not used in capital production. Cap hulls are 100% T1. T2 cap fittings do use goo, but they’re neither necessary nor difficult to acquire. This is very basic, cursory information. > That threat comes from possession of a large number of capitals and players. It appears you did not know this… The most likely outcome for them is that they will collapse on their own from internal failures and mismanagement. If that doesn’t happen, in a few years, sure, they might have the numbers to be a “threat” but, you’ll notice that The Bigs aren’t currently laying siege to Tribute, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/163 "2019-09-04T21:12:33Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You’re suggesting they would have a difficult time of it, and they WOULD if everyone were zealously guarding all sov null the way you **imagine** it works, but sov fights (even when there ISN’T a fight) are a chore and those guys are more likely to be “content” than a threat. It appears you are actually aggreeing with my suggestion for change here… Forcing groups do defend a structure in every single null sec system they control would have that effect. > if everyone were zealously guarding all sov null the way you **imagine** it works, Strawman Argument. My stated position is the opposite of what you are claiming i “imagine” it is. what I have argued is that the current environment allows groups concentrate their key sturcture into a single system. Please actually read what I say before making assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/164 "2019-09-04T21:16:17Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > It appears you are actually aggreeing with my suggestion for change here… > Forcing groups do defend a structure in every single null sec system they control would have that effect. You understand we already have structures in nearly every system, right? Most of which are within supercap jump range from central staging. > [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > Strawman Argument. My stated position is the opposite of what you are claiming i “imagine” it is. > what I have argued is that the current environment allows groups concentrate their key sturcture into a single system. Please actually read what I say before making assertions. Your stated position was that small groups cannot hold sov. This is incorrect. Small groups can hold sov. Large groups do not bother to prevent it. Presumably your belief that small groups cannot hold sov is predicated on… something. I don’t know what it is, but the basis is definitely NOT what actually happens in the game, so I’m assuming you _imagined_ this to be the case. If you’ve gleaned such information from elsewhere, feel free to cite your sources. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/165 "2019-09-04T21:17:17Z")
> [@Haulie\_Berry](#): > > You may have to make nice-nice with the biggest locals, but you absolutely can go get sov. > > It’s also worth noting that Sov is purely a “fixed” cost of supercap production - it does not gate the actual generation of capital ships beyond the basic requirement. You need one supercap upgraded ihub and one sotiyo and you’re in the supercap making game. > > Consequently, supercaps can be _purchased_, often for less than their material costs. In contrast, a cartel-controlled resource makes the hulls, themselves, effectively cartel-controlled. Now we have all the titans and you can’t even _buy_ them (as was generally the case, once upon a time, back when they were still rare and selling titans outside of your alliance was often tantamount to treason), because now they’re STILL necessary, AND there’s production scarcity, AND the best way to maintain control over production is with caps, AND you can’t contest that control without caps. I agree with all of this. I actually stated something similar to second paragraph myself. The third paragraph also seems to agree with my opinion that there is an over abundant “supply” of capital hulls. Edit: There… I think I addressed the entirety of the post you immediately accused me of cherry picking]([Cherry picking - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking#targetText=Cherry%20picking%2C%20suppressing%20evidence%2C%20or,that%20may%20contradict%20that%20position.&targetText=This%20fallacy%20is%20a%20major%20problem%20in%20public%20debate.)) ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/166 "2019-09-04T21:19:39Z")
> [@Mark\_Remillard](#): > > I agree with all of this. I actually stated something similar to second paragraph myself. The third paragraph also seems to agree with my opinion that the over abundant “supply” of capital hulls. The problem is not the supply. The problem is the necessity, which is a function of, “The only answer to capital ships is capital ships.” Your attempts to correct this fundamental problem of capital ships through “the supply” does _nothing_ except consolidate the power of capital ships in the hands of people who already have them. You go from a present day scenario where caps are necessary to fight caps _but it’s possible for people to acquire caps_ to a scenario wherein caps are still necessary to fight caps **and nobody else can get caps anymore**. What we have now is really quite terrible, but what you came up with is one of the few things that would actually make it dramatically worse. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Remillard](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/mark_remillard/32/299147_2.png) [@Mark\_Remillard](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Mark_Remillard)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/167 "2019-09-04T21:31:37Z")
This is turning into an possible unintentional [Gish Gallop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop#targetText=The%20Gish%20gallop%20is%20a,or%20strength%20of%20the%20arguments.) by both of us. (ie. attempting to overwhelm the other side by making a massive number of individual arguments). Please finish responding to my comments at your convenience, I will respond sometime this weekend (giving us both some time to process). Feel free to call me out if I fail to do so. Im having this debate while at work right now… at some point I need to do my actual job 😏 ---
**Author:** ![Haulie\_Berry](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/eveonline/user_avatar/forums.eveonline.com/haulie_berry/32/388021_2.png) [@Haulie\_Berry](https://forums.eveonline.com/u/Haulie_Berry)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281/168 "2019-09-04T21:32:56Z")
Okay, guy-who-thinks-caps-require-moon-goo. [Previous page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281.md?page=6) [Next page](https://forums.eveonline.com/t/the-obsolescence-of-subcapitals/177281.md?page=8)